McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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henra
henra
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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ringo wrote:
Aero wont be something that limits them from setting up the car. It's usually the other way around, the mechanical setup limits the aero performance.
Hmm, this statement is a tad too absolute for my taste.
A diffuser that runs on the verge of stalling can be a very limiting factor for the setup options of the car. It can force you to limit the vertical movement range of the car. Thereby messing up mechanical efficiency/behaviour.
We have seen that happening before in F1. And the description of the problems of the MP4-28 lead me to believe the (main) issue is somewhere in that department.
Ride quality is mechanical, Button says the car is balanced (aero is ok) but it has poor ride (un compliant mechanical).
Yes ride quality is mechanical but it can be a consequence of trying to mitigate an aerodynamic ride height sensitivity problem which requires them to run a setup that is too stiff for good mechanical behaviour. It can be (and probably more often than not is) a symptom and not the original cause. As someone already said, suspension is probably better understood and less prone to totally unexpected behaviour than aerodramatic issues.
Just look at how long it took RB last year to get their tunnel working properly. And Adrian Newey is far from being an amateur in that regard...

Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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For what it's worth(not a whole lot IMHO) here's GA's take on McLaren problems..

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Pup
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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As I said earlier, a new front wing is an easy bet since it will surely happen regardless of how it's related to their current problems. I don't dismiss the wing as the cause of the problem, but I don't think that the wing's simplicity is in itself evidence of that. There seems to be an attitude that McLaren have missed something there because of its simplicity, whereas I think it's only natural that the wing is simple, given that they're beginning with an entirely new aero. That is, start with a simple wing that gets the air going generally where you need it to be, and then you develop. I'd venture that they probably had a more complex, more developed wing in the works, but have held back on it until they find the fix.

And I think with aero it's sometimes impossible to say that it's specifically caused by x or y. Let's say the diffuser is stalling, and maybe it could be fixed by changing the diffuser, or maybe also by a tweak to the exhaust, or a cut in the floor, or even a tweak to the front wing that keeps the airflow to the diffuser more stable, or maybe by some combination of those. Which of those things then was the 'cause'? So in some cases, I think the aero either works or it doesn't, and it's not so useful to say that the front wing was the problem, even if it was change to the front wing that fixed it. If that makes sense.

Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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Here is a response to GA's comments on the MP4-28 and the FW from a current F1 Aerodynamicist

The number of elements a FW has does not define how much downforce it creates or how 'good' or 'bad' it is. In fact, a unstalled, healthy wing with more slot gaps, will produce more loss than one with less slot gaps that is equally healthy as every slot gap causing thickening of the the overall boundary layer (this is a simplification, in practice they're unlikely to be equally healthy).

You generally only add slots once you're attempting to do more work with an element than it's capable of doing without stalling. The whole percentage stall thing is a bit of a red herring. If the last element but one stalls before the slot gap, it might end up being less efficient than a single element that stalls only towards the end of it's element.

GA is right to say that a higher FW angle gives more overall downforce, however you use the wing to balance the understeer/oversteer characteristics of the car and put the centre of aerodynamic load where the car is most drivable. If anything, a low front wing flap angle suggests that the rear of the car isn't producing as much downforce as they're expecting! This points to them maybe not getting the effect their expecting from the exhaust/outside of the diffuser..


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ringo
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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henra wrote:
A diffuser that runs on the verge of stalling can be a very limiting factor for the setup options of the car. It can force you to limit the vertical movement range of the car. Thereby messing up mechanical efficiency/behaviour.
We have seen that happening before in F1. And the description of the problems of the MP4-28 lead me to believe the (main) issue is somewhere in that department.
True, but the diffuser cannot be tuned or setup. Therefore it's not a variable, your variable over a weekend is your suspension. And this what limits your aerodynamic performance.
One example is ride height dependence. Remeber when during winter testing they ran the car too low?
That's an example of mechanical limitation which expanded the aerodynamic envelop.
Yes ride quality is mechanical but it can be a consequence of trying to mitigate an aerodynamic ride height sensitivity problem which requires them to run a setup that is too stiff for good mechanical behaviour.


That's some circular logic there. You went from mechanical to aero to mechanical.
Put it this way, if your car has good aero, it will be consistently good. A team that has no money to do any updates will be able to setup the mechanical to get a good balance on any track. The aerodynamics will still give the same performance regardless of the track. What you find is the suspension setup that is changed more often than not.
And one setup doesn't work well on all tracks. But one aero package can work well on all tracks (with the exception of Monza and Monaco)
It can be (and probably more often than not is) a symptom and not the original cause. As someone already said, suspension is probably better understood and less prone to totally unexpected behaviour than aerodramatic issues.
Just look at how long it took RB last year to get their tunnel working properly. And Adrian Newey is far from being an amateur in that regard...
Suspension is not better understood. It is also more dificult to do repeated tests on it. Aero has more controls.
You do straight line tests and a few yaw tests, to evaluate most things. Suspension as mentioned before, worse when pirrelli tyres are thrown into the mix, different tracks, surfaces, fuel levels etc. cannot be easier to understand. It is more of a black art than Aero. in fact it probably cannot be mapped with all variables taken into account, hence why a team can have a predetermined Aero package that works on a track, but they cannot have a predetermined suspension setup that works throughout a weekend. Too many variables, and sometimes when you think you understand the mechanical side in practice 3, all of a sudden in Q1 the car is behaving completely differently. This indicates that it is less understood and less under controlled, and the engineers cannot be blamed for it anyway.
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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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Suspension is not better understood. It is also more dificult to do repeated tests on it. Aero has more controls.
You do straight line tests and a few yaw tests, to evaluate most things. Suspension as mentioned before, worse when pirrelli tyres are thrown into the mix, different tracks, surfaces, fuel levels etc. cannot be easier to understand. It is more of a black art than Aero. in fact it probably cannot be mapped with all variables taken into account, hence why a team can have a predetermined Aero package that works on a track, but they cannot have a predetermined suspension setup that works throughout a weekend. Too many variables, and sometimes when you think you understand the mechanical side in practice 3, all of a sudden in Q1 the car is behaving completely differently. This indicates that it is less understood and less under controlled, and the engineers cannot be blamed for it anyway.
=D> A plus one for that.
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Nando
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Here is a response to GA's comments on the MP4-28 and the FW from a current F1 Aerodynamicist

The number of elements a FW has does not define how much downforce it creates or how 'good' or 'bad' it is. In fact, a unstalled, healthy wing with more slot gaps, will produce more loss than one with less slot gaps that is equally healthy as every slot gap causing thickening of the the overall boundary layer (this is a simplification, in practice they're unlikely to be equally healthy).

You generally only add slots once you're attempting to do more work with an element than it's capable of doing without stalling. The whole percentage stall thing is a bit of a red herring. If the last element but one stalls before the slot gap, it might end up being less efficient than a single element that stalls only towards the end of it's element.

GA is right to say that a higher FW angle gives more overall downforce, however you use the wing to balance the understeer/oversteer characteristics of the car and put the centre of aerodynamic load where the car is most drivable. If anything, a low front wing flap angle suggests that the rear of the car isn't producing as much downforce as they're expecting! This points to them maybe not getting the effect their expecting from the exhaust/outside of the diffuser..


Source
so sidepods is probably the problem? They look quite different from last year and they did evolve last years sidepods and it was after that package they became very strong,
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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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Nando wrote:
Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Here is a response to GA's comments on the MP4-28 and the FW from a current F1 Aerodynamicist

The number of elements a FW has does not define how much downforce it creates or how 'good' or 'bad' it is. In fact, a unstalled, healthy wing with more slot gaps, will produce more loss than one with less slot gaps that is equally healthy as every slot gap causing thickening of the the overall boundary layer (this is a simplification, in practice they're unlikely to be equally healthy).

You generally only add slots once you're attempting to do more work with an element than it's capable of doing without stalling. The whole percentage stall thing is a bit of a red herring. If the last element but one stalls before the slot gap, it might end up being less efficient than a single element that stalls only towards the end of it's element.

GA is right to say that a higher FW angle gives more overall downforce, however you use the wing to balance the understeer/oversteer characteristics of the car and put the centre of aerodynamic load where the car is most drivable. If anything, a low front wing flap angle suggests that the rear of the car isn't producing as much downforce as they're expecting! This points to them maybe not getting the effect their expecting from the exhaust/outside of the diffuser..


Source
so sidepods is probably the problem? They look quite different from last year and they did evolve last years sidepods and it was after that package they became very strong,
But crucially still rather weak in the wet in Germany!

The last couple of years mclaren always ran a stiff set up, and on most occasions, not all of them, they got into trouble when it they had to do runs in the wet. It looks that now they came to a point were they pushed the aero too far for this stiff setup. In ideal conditions this car probably would do what it is designed for aka the peak DF. But, there are too many variables in play to have an ideal situation. They sacrificed too much "window" to get the perfect car.

The cullprit is the suspension, but you are certainly also going to need to alter the aero. Changing the suspension will let the aero work differently, and throw the current aero package out of its harmony.
#AeroFrodo

Nando
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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turbof1 wrote:But crucially still rather weak in the wet in Germany!
Yea that´s true the car was acting very strange in slippery conditions.
In Silverstone it was great on one of the wet compounds but 3 seconds of pace on the other, and vice versa.

Will be interesting to see just how much they will bring to China. Hopefully they have sorted it out.
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Gridlock
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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IMO this is where 'being McLaren' pays off - most of the cars on the grid will be waiting for Spain for Mk2s, I bet Woking has been buzzing for 2 weeks.I expect a substantially faster car in China.
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Pup
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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Gridlock wrote:IMO this is where 'being McLaren' pays off - most of the cars on the grid will be waiting for Spain for Mk2s, I bet Woking has been buzzing for 2 weeks.I expect a substantially faster car in China.
Frankly, I think it's a myth that McLaren can develop a car better than anyone else. Last year, for example, they were soundly out-developed by both Red Bull and Ferrari for the better part of the season.

That's not to say that they aren't one of the best, but showing up at the last race with the quickest car doesn't mean much if you weren't in the running for half the season.

Nonetheless, I'll be surprised if they aren't a good bit closer the the pack in China, if not right in the mix with them.
Last edited by Pup on 08 Apr 2013, 00:09, edited 1 time in total.

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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Pup wrote:
Gridlock wrote:IMO this is where 'being McLaren' pays off - most of the cars on the grid will be waiting for Spain for Mk2s, I bet Woking has been buzzing for 2 weeks.I expect a substantially faster car in China.
Frankly, I think it's a myth that McLaren can develop a car better than anyone else. Last year, for example, they were soundly out-developed by both Red Bull and Ferrari for the better part of the season.

That's not to say that they aren't one of the best, but showing up at the last race with the quickest car doesn't mean much if you weren't in the running for half the season.
Exactly. Infact, the only season I can remember them having a big pace in development, was 2009. A year where they started out with a bad car -a bad car is easier to improve then a good car- and with huge development potentional due the current aero was back then only in its childsteps. But when gains are more difficult to find, they are behind ferrari and certainly well behind red bull.
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Shakeman
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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turbof1 wrote:
Pup wrote:
Gridlock wrote:IMO this is where 'being McLaren' pays off - most of the cars on the grid will be waiting for Spain for Mk2s, I bet Woking has been buzzing for 2 weeks.I expect a substantially faster car in China.
Frankly, I think it's a myth that McLaren can develop a car better than anyone else. Last year, for example, they were soundly out-developed by both Red Bull and Ferrari for the better part of the season.

That's not to say that they aren't one of the best, but showing up at the last race with the quickest car doesn't mean much if you weren't in the running for half the season.
Exactly. Infact, the only season I can remember them having a big pace in development, was 2009. A year where they started out with a bad car -a bad car is easier to improve then a good car- and with huge development potentional due the current aero was back then only in its childsteps. But when gains are more difficult to find, they are behind ferrari and certainly well behind red bull.
This year is rather reminiscent of 2009. I expect them to take big steps forward but any one of the front running teams would do that starting with such a poor car.

I don't thing the "developing the car best in season" is a badge of honour unless by the end of the season you're way out in front.

astracrazy
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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it makes sense regarding the front wing aoa. theres a reason why GA is a pundit for the BBC and not employed by mclaren to solve there problems

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

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This year is rather reminiscent of 2009. I expect them to take big steps forward but any one of the front running teams would do that starting with such a poor car.

I don't thing the "developing the car best in season" is a badge of honour unless by the end of the season you're way out in front.
This year isn't anything like 2009. The current aero generation has been fully matured; in 2009 you could turn a car that had fundamental design flaws into a fundamentally-flawed-but-race-winning car. That option simply isn't there anymore. And, there is to consider the 2014 car. Mclaren can't use all its resources on a car that will have little continuation next year.

I think you can wear it as a badge of honour. Mclaren in 2009 didn't got the title, but they can be proud that in the end they were together with rbr the fastest cars, even though the car was crap. Sometimes when a season that starts off that bad, winning titles stops being the only thing to be proud of.
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