What the 'Fric' is it?

[autogyro]

F1 would be a lot less interesting technically without Scrab's superb input over the years.

These Fric sytems being passive are close loop in operation.
The thing has to be made to work using its own input.

There are a number of ways to achieve this and no team is going to tell you which they use.

The problem is that when you try to set the thing up, its a bit like flying a helicopter.
Every thing you change affects everything else.

Well worth further discusion though.

[Smokes]

Can some one draft up a P&id of the system. There have to be a bladder accumuator somewhere in the system, if you are not using spings to pressurise the fluid when car is static.

[autogyro]

I would use the fuel tank so as to maintain ground clearance.

[DaveW]

Can some one draft up a P&id of the system.

I suggest you consult section 2.2 of the above reference (repeated here for convenience).

[DaveW]

F1 would be a lot less interesting technically without Scrab's superb input over the years.

I think ringo would agree with that...

In the last part of ringo's unpopular post he stated (roughly) the we should first define the requirement, and then propose solutions that satisfy the requirement.

I think we have yet to agree a requirement.

[WhiteBlue]

I broke the FRIC story back in 2011 and made Mercedes unhappy that their secret was let out. Since then I've had a series of F1 engineers explain more about it to me. For example this was from an F1 engineer on the subject of FRIC back 2011 "I'd say you would get a significant control of roll, heave and pitch with such a system with the valve openings based purely on the pressures at each corner, without needing any external control sources. It is closer in design to a braking system than other hydraulics as it is passive rather than controlled (and pressurised) externally."

I would speculate a number of things from this quotation.

1. The unnamed F1 engineer probably is from Mercedes because Scarbs mentions in another post Merc was the only team into pure FRIC at that time.

2. There is probably a closed loop feature with a control valve or valves driven by pressure from each corner of the car.

So one potential explanation is that each corner has an gas spring accumulator which would feed back his pressure signal to a set of valves. The gas pressure in each gas spring or the differential between a pair would be the feed back signal to those valves that obviously would influence the hydraulic damping fluid.

It would make sense to me to throttle the flow of hydraulic fluid between the front/rear and left/right based on the differential signals from the gas springs. How that can be achieved is a different question.

The remark about similarities with a braking system design is interesting. A servo braking system picks up a signal and drives the brakes accordingly. If the dampers are controlled by way of the air spring pressure differential the similarity is obvious.

[bcoxa]

I'm Sorry, but what is "double dutch"?

Double Dutch is using 2 forms of birth control, like the female on birth control pills and the male using a condom. Dont ask me why it is called "Double Dutch" but that is pretty much what it means.

Now back on topic lol

No it doesn't, well not here in the UK. It means "Nonsense, incomprehensible talk or gibberish". i.e. the person can't make sense of what the poster is saying. either its above their station or it literially is nonesense.

[WhiteBlue]

I'm Sorry, but what is "double dutch"?

Double Dutch is using 2 forms of birth control, like the female on birth control pills and the male using a condom. Dont ask me why it is called "Double Dutch" but that is pretty much what it means.

Now back on topic lol

No it doesn't, well not here in the UK. It means "Nonsense, incomprehensible talk or gibberish". i.e. the person can't make sense of what the poster is saying. either its above their station or it literially is nonesense.

He is right according to the Meriam Webster which usually is the reference in legal disputes.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... le%20dutch

[wesley123]

I'm Sorry, but what is "double dutch"?

Double Dutch is using 2 forms of birth control, like the female on birth control pills and the male using a condom. Dont ask me why it is called "Double Dutch" but that is pretty much what it means.

Now back on topic lol

No it doesn't, well not here in the UK. It means "Nonsense, incomprehensible talk or gibberish". i.e. the person can't make sense of what the poster is saying. either its above their station or it literially is nonesense.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... le%20dutch

2. double dutch
Using both a condom and anticonception pills when making babies without making babies.
If you're both too ugly to curse this world with a bilateral product, you should be doing it double dutch.

3. Double Dutch
To use two or more types of contraceptives, usually a condom and the pill. Named after the dutch becasue of thier open attitude towards sex and contraception.
It's fine we'll Double Dutch

That is where I know the term from

[WhiteBlue]

well, if you take your language references from slang

[Absolutelee]

in the US double dutch is a jump rope game with 2 people with a jump rope in each hand and a few people in the middle.

clearly this is unimportant to the topic so I'll go away now

[Richard]

For what its worth, "going dutch" means splitting the bill. I also doubt that we can claim an American English dictionary is the universal tool of choice for settling legal disputes. Personally, I'd suspect it isn't much use in countries speaking a different version of English, and more importantly I'd hope several centuries of case law and statute would take precedent. Personally, I'd go for Lord Bowen's solution of asking the man on the Clapham omnibus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_man_on ... am_omnibus

Now lets get back on topic ....

[ringo]

I would speculate a number of things from this quotation.

1. The unnamed F1 engineer probably is from Mercedes because Scarbs mentions in another post Merc was the only team into pure FRIC at that time.

2. There is probably a closed loop feature with a control valve or valves driven by pressure from each corner of the car.

So one potential explanation is that each corner has an gas spring accumulator which would feed back his pressure signal to a set of valves. The gas pressure in each gas spring or the differential between a pair would be the feed back signal to those valves that obviously would influence the hydraulic damping fluid.

It would make sense to me to throttle the flow of hydraulic fluid between the front/rear and left/right based on the differential signals from the gas springs. How that can be achieved is a different question.

The remark about similarities with a braking system design is interesting. A servo braking system picks up a signal and drives the brakes accordingly. If the dampers are controlled by way of the air spring pressure differential the similarity is obvious.

White blue. Before we go down that road. Let's keep our feet on the ground; as ferrari likes to say.

why do you need this gas spring system?

what flexibility or degrees of freedom is this gas accumulator spring offering over the typical suspension. And how big is it or heavy relative to a torsion spring?
And you are saying that each corner has this complex assembly.

I would put this theory on the back burner until we find out why we need a FRIC system in the first place.

Suspension is based on vibration theory, the time frames we are dealing with is very very small. The sytem needs to react in miliseconds. All that complication i dont think will be passive an react in the time needed. Complicated systems only react quickly when externally powered or computer controlled. Hydraulic systems aren't the fastest things when over complicated. So it's best to keep elements in the system precise, deliberate and intentional to a specific purpose.

A braking systems nowadays isn't a good comparison. A brake system is powered by so many things. Vacuum, abs controls etc. When you say servo controls it deviates even more.
I'm thinking of a self balancing hydraulic system. Whatever that is. in fact like all great ideas i think FRIC is very simple in what it is.

[ringo]

It just occurred to me....



The reason the dampers are basically on the pull rod...

Could this be for ride height control...?

I am assuming that the damper is chambered in a way to increase pull rod length. If it is not on the push rod and is on a bell crank instead it wont give an effective increase or reduction in length, the bell crank ratio would have a say.

Also if your damper is on the pull rod. It will have no effect on the spring. This is more crucial!!!

A damper on a bell crank, if it has a change of lenght and pushed the crank to increase ride height. It will have to go against the spring force.

A usually change in ride height is all adding shims to a pull rod or screwing an adjuster nut.
This damper in this diagram is not only a damper, but it is a length adjuster.

A possible route to explore is if the damping of the car is much different than FRIC. Fric may be a separate system that simply shares the damper body. Maybe it is compounded with the damping of the car, but it can be likely that it has it's own hydraulic circuit separate and apart from the damping fluid. it may only use the damping fluid volume and speed as inputs to control rate of ride height change and also the displacement.

Make sense?

edit: i spoke too soon, i could have a few errors, i'm going through some diagrams. but the idea still holds.

[autogyro]

Well found Ringo.
Now couple the variable length hydraulic pushrod with a variable hydraulic leveller in the fuel tank for constant ride height and seperate hydro/pneumatic spring displacers and remote hydraulic damping/roll/pitch control and you should be able to design a system.
When do we start?

I feel for Ross and the guys at Merc setting it up though.

Oh and Ringo, the pull rod is not a damper.