Driver styles/preferences

[raymondu999]

I think what JimClarkFan is referring to, is what alluded to - Mansell (in the active days) and Vettel (in the exhaust days - ie now) driving to a limit that he doesn't intuitively feel - but something counterintuitive that he is told - and their blind faith pays off.

[JimClarkFan]

Depends. How do you define reactive/responsive, versus manipulative?

It sounds (from the way you speak of it) that you're coming off the Peter Windsor dichotomy of styles. There are still a lot of things that I disagree with what he says on driving - I still believe he doesn't have a clue as to some of the things he talks about,in terms of driving - but as earlier discussed, either in this thread or its sister thread*, the dichotomy does work as a classification.

What I get from what he says is basically that manipulative is the driver telling the car what to do, based on his feel for the car. Reactive drivers, from what I understand of Peter Windsor, is about drivers who don't actually have great feel. They chuck the car in/out of corners, then react to the mistakes to correct them.

*) For sister thread discussing Peter Windsor and his buddy Rob Wilson's point of view on driving, see here: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=13034

Disclaimer: not a big fan of Peter Windsor, nor his "expertise" on driving. IMO he speaks a load of tosh. To quote myself:

To me it's sometimes clear that Peter Windsor is able to see things we can't. For example I saw Alonso and Vettel in Monza taking the straight between Ascari and Parabolica diagonal. He saw Alonso and Vettel sticking to the right hand side of the road and apparently only diagonalling the straight in the last 200 meters. Every race weekend he is able to spot something no other living human is, and apparently to his eyes it's blatantly obvious that only [insert racewinner's name] and [insert p2 finisher's name] are doing.

When I refer to manipulative I am mean a driver who deliberately causes oversteer or understeer, or a bit of drift to move the car in the direction they want. So schumi turning the rear would be an example. When I refer to responsive I mean a driver who picks his line and drives it responding to any car movement if necessary. Cerebral is what Vettel was doing based on Neweys instruction, i.e. flooring it even when it felt as if the car was on the edge of grip.

I'm not necessarily sure that one has a better 'feel' than the other, because I simply don't know.
But yes, a clear definition of what manipulative/responsive and cerebral means would be required.

On reading some of that other thread, I would tend to side with you actually.

[timbo]

I think what JimClarkFan is referring to, is what alluded to - Mansell (in the active days) and Vettel (in the exhaust days - ie now) driving to a limit that he doesn't intuitively feel - but something counterintuitive that he is told - and their blind faith pays off.

Ah, thanks.

Reactive drivers, from what I understand of Peter Windsor, is about drivers who don't actually have great feel. They chuck the car in/out of corners, then react to the mistakes to correct them.

I disagree. I actually think that reactive drivers are ones who rely more on their "feel" from the car than manipulative ones.
Although I think that the lines are blurred greatly and that's just tendencies.

[JimClarkFan]

I think what JimClarkFan is referring to, is what alluded to - Mansell (in the active days) and Vettel (in the exhaust days - ie now) driving to a limit that he doesn't intuitively feel - but something counterintuitive that he is told - and their blind faith pays off.

Ah, thanks.

Reactive drivers, from what I understand of Peter Windsor, is about drivers who don't actually have great feel. They chuck the car in/out of corners, then react to the mistakes to correct them.

I disagree. I actually think that reactive drivers are ones who rely more on their "feel" from the car than manipulative ones.
Although I think that the lines are blurred greatly and that's just tendencies.

That begs the question, if responsive drivers have better feel, why wouldn't they use it to manipulate the car when they need to. For instance, a car that has a loose rear end, some driver, don't like that and can't drive around it. Certainly nearly every driver on the F1 grid seems to need the car to act in a certain way, Button, Massa, Webber. Perhaps the only two drivers who can adapt at will are Hamilton and Alonso.

Another thing, are there different kinds of 'feel.'
For instance, a feel for timing, like an internal clock that tells a person, 'this way is faster than that way?' Rather than just a feel for grip?

[timbo]

That begs the question, if responsive drivers have better feel, why wouldn't they use it to manipulate the car when they need to.

I think that's like asking a left handed person to write with right hand. For somebody that's going around their nature.

For instance, a car that has a loose rear end, some driver, don't like that and can't drive around it. Certainly nearly every driver on the F1 grid seems to need the car to act in a certain way, Button, Massa, Webber. Perhaps the only two drivers who can adapt at will are Hamilton and Alonso.

To continue my analogy, there are people who can use their both hands pretty good and there are ones who can't. IMO driver's hand/eye/feel coordination is wired very deeply.

Another thing, are there different kinds of 'feel.'
For instance, a feel for timing, like an internal clock that tells a person, 'this way is faster than that way?' Rather than just a feel for grip?

Yeah, I do think there's different kinds of "feel". But the primary one which drivers rely on is the balance.
And once again all people are different in what they feel -- for example, if I'm not using my eyes I can't align things vertically or horizontally with my hand, but I have very good eye for sizes and shapes and can use that to control my coordination. Whereas my father has very good "hand feel" but not very good eye.

[raymondu999]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbqeyNaU7I[/youtube]

Interesting that Hamilton keeps his nose tucked in a lot tighter in the T1-2 complex, whereas Alonso seems to drift wide towards the left to open up the entry to 2 and 3.

Seems to me that Alonso is quite kerb-shy too in this video, or the Ferrari when driven on-limit perhaps exhibits understeer - which would seem to match Mark Hughes' assessment of Alonso's preferences. Perhaps he could have been P2 on the grid had he clipped the apex kerbs?

[Sevach]

Interesting comparison, Alonso lost a lot of time in sector 1 it seems to me that if the front end is good enough to keep it tight that's the way to go.
They also drive T8-9 (the S turns) quite differently from one another this time with Alonso keeping it tighter while Hamilton opens up and then comes back for the braking zone of T9.

[Clew]

I'd say Kimi, Shumy and Alonso. They delivered consistency with at least 3 teams

[raymondu999]

I'd say Kimi, Shumy and Alonso. They delivered consistency with at least 3 teams

I don't follow. You'd say they what?

[JimClarkFan]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbqeyNaU7I[/youtube]

Interesting that Hamilton keeps his nose tucked in a lot tighter in the T1-2 complex, whereas Alonso seems to drift wide towards the left to open up the entry to 2 and 3.

Seems to me that Alonso is quite kerb-shy too in this video, or the Ferrari when driven on-limit perhaps exhibits understeer - which would seem to match Mark Hughes' assessment of Alonso's preferences. Perhaps he could have been P2 on the grid had he clipped the apex kerbs?

Interesting comparison, Alonso lost a lot of time in sector 1 it seems to me that if the front end is good enough to keep it tight that's the way to go.
They also drive T8-9 (the S turns) quite differently from one another this time with Alonso keeping it tighter while Hamilton opens up and then comes back for the braking zone of T9.

The video is not working so I can only go by what you guys are saying.
However, this might have been a tyre preservation strategy for the race. China is front limited, according to almost everyone, so there is a chance that Alonso was deliberately not asking too much of his fronts to preserve for the race.
What also makes me think that this is a ploy for the race is that I have seen Alonso crawling all over crubs, especially in the Renault days so I don't immediately agree that he is curb shy.
More proof perhaps, of just how extremely adaptable Alonso is.

[raymondu999]

It seems the video has fallen prey to the copyright hounds.

JCF - thing is though, the video was showing both drivers drive their qualifying laps. Not laps from the race - so I'm not buying the tyre conservation argument. The qualifying margins nowadays are way too tight to even consider tyre saving.

[JimClarkFan]

It seems the video has fallen prey to the copyright hounds.

JCF - thing is though, the video was showing both drivers drive their qualifying laps. Not laps from the race - so I'm not buying the tyre conservation argument. The qualifying margins nowadays are way too tight to even consider tyre saving.

Yes I had assumed it was quali.

What you said might be true, but it worth considering that Alonso has said a couple of times now that qualifying is not as important as it once was.

I can envisage Alonso playing a longer terms game here. Obviously he wants to be on pole, but he often doesn't need pole to win the race. I think it is plausible that he qualifies within the limits of the car - he often seems to have far more in the race than quali.

[Clew]

I'd say Kimi, Shumy and Alonso. They delivered consistency with at least 3 teams

I don't follow. You'd say they what?

You know what I mean. Stop stilling the pot mate

[raymondu999]

I'd say Kimi, Shumy and Alonso. They delivered consistency with at least 3 teams

I don't follow. You'd say they what?

You know what I mean. Stop stilling the pot mate

The 2 posts right before yours were discussing differing technique and lines into Turn 1:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbqeyNaU7I[/youtube]

Interesting that Hamilton keeps his nose tucked in a lot tighter in the T1-2 complex, whereas Alonso seems to drift wide towards the left to open up the entry to 2 and 3.

Seems to me that Alonso is quite kerb-shy too in this video, or the Ferrari when driven on-limit perhaps exhibits understeer - which would seem to match Mark Hughes' assessment of Alonso's preferences. Perhaps he could have been P2 on the grid had he clipped the apex kerbs?

Interesting comparison, Alonso lost a lot of time in sector 1 it seems to me that if the front end is good enough to keep it tight that's the way to go.
They also drive T8-9 (the S turns) quite differently from one another this time with Alonso keeping it tighter while Hamilton opens up and then comes back for the braking zone of T9.

The one before it was discussing how drivers feel grip:

That begs the question, if responsive drivers have better feel, why wouldn't they use it to manipulate the car when they need to.

I think that's like asking a left handed person to write with right hand. For somebody that's going around their nature.

For instance, a car that has a loose rear end, some driver, don't like that and can't drive around it. Certainly nearly every driver on the F1 grid seems to need the car to act in a certain way, Button, Massa, Webber. Perhaps the only two drivers who can adapt at will are Hamilton and Alonso.

To continue my analogy, there are people who can use their both hands pretty good and there are ones who can't. IMO driver's hand/eye/feel coordination is wired very deeply.

Another thing, are there different kinds of 'feel.'
For instance, a feel for timing, like an internal clock that tells a person, 'this way is faster than that way?' Rather than just a feel for grip?

Yeah, I do think there's different kinds of "feel". But the primary one which drivers rely on is the balance.
And once again all people are different in what they feel -- for example, if I'm not using my eyes I can't align things vertically or horizontally with my hand, but I have very good eye for sizes and shapes and can use that to control my coordination. Whereas my father has very good "hand feel" but not very good eye.

So forgive me for being f*cking rude... but what in the name of f*ck is this:

I'd say Kimi, Shumy and Alonso. They delivered consistency with at least 3 teams

[/quote]
supposed to be replying to? If you were saying "I'd say Kimi, Schumi and Alonso were the best 3 drivers" - then that would form a complete thought. Right now I can't make heads nor tails of what the hell you're saying.

[raymondu999]

Vettel said after qualifying that he found "a trick" - presumably meaning a different line or different style, in Sector 3 - traditionally his bogey sector.

Interestingly, he also said the same after qualifying on pole for Spa 2011, and on pole for Suzuka 2012. Anybody catch on TV what said trick was?