2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[autogyro]

So powering up the engine during deceleration is powering the Kers generator not the energy from brakeing.
So much for recovering energy then.
All this is doing is charging the batteries by burning fuel and using the exhaust gas produced to blow the diffuser.

[Pierce89]

So powering up the engine during deceleration is powering the Kers generator not the energy from brakeing.
So much for recovering energy then.
All this is doing is charging the batteries by burning fuel and using the exhaust gas produced to blow the diffuser.

The KERS does recover some braking energy. They don't fuel on the overrun solely to charge KERS but to make the car more stable by not overpowering the rear tires with negative torque.

[WhiteBlue]

2014 engines are to be homologated in march 2014. What does this homologation mean?

I'm pretty sure it means that the tech spec will be frozen for a year. They cannot bring updates unless it is for reliability. That would be a typical meaning. I would also expect different tech regulations for 2015 for which purpose development can be done during 2014. But that is clearly an assumption on my part based on what was published by the engine working group and the FiA policies. The fuel use is supposed to be continually reduced while the development cost are to be limited. This would mean that they liberate certain aspects of the design year after year to make progress while simultaneously limiting the scope for development.

[autogyro]

So powering up the engine during deceleration is powering the Kers generator not the energy from brakeing.
So much for recovering energy then.
All this is doing is charging the batteries by burning fuel and using the exhaust gas produced to blow the diffuser.

The KERS does recover some braking energy. They don't fuel on the overrun solely to charge KERS but to make the car more stable by not overpowering the rear tires with negative torque.

If they power the geartrain by burning fuel to ensure zero torque during deceleration, how then can they recover energy from deceleration?
The net energy harvested will equal the fuel burnt less the expected losses from friction etc.

[Dragonfly]

That's what made me to not like KERS in its F1 implementation. It appears to be just a "green" smoke screen.
What's interesting is whether the new compound system will work the same way or they can now provide a constant negative load on the wheels which will not vary the overall braking balance of the car.

[Pierce89]

So powering up the engine during deceleration is powering the Kers generator not the energy from brakeing.
So much for recovering energy then.
All this is doing is charging the batteries by burning fuel and using the exhaust gas produced to blow the diffuser.

The KERS does recover some braking energy. They don't fuel on the overrun solely to charge KERS but to make the car more stable by not overpowering the rear tires with negative torque.

If they power the geartrain by burning fuel to ensure zero torque during deceleration, how then can they recover energy from deceleration?
The net energy harvested will equal the fuel burnt less the expected losses from friction etc.

The mgu produces negative torque through the geartrain even if the engine produces zero torque.

[Tommy Cookers]

for the system to be harvesting any genuine KE (ie regenerative braking) the negative torque would have to be greater (more negative) than the natural negative torque (engine braking) associated with zero fuelling after driver lifting

even then the system could be simultaneously harvesting some 'fake' energy ie coming from real-time fuel burning

the 2014 system has doubled the nominal power (of this 'recovery') to 120 kW/161 hp (Renault uses a 40 hp system now ?)
because the new engines have lower losses (engine braking torque), the 'zero torque' fuelling is less than currently
the new system could not run at max power only on 'fake' KE in the braking zone, although generation could extend beyond ?
there is every reason for doing this (because the only downside is the extra fuel weight (around 4-6 kg total ?)

it would only be possible to prevent this by mandating a negative torque value that forced all such recovery to be regenerative
or try to mandate zero fuelling (without impeding gear shifting ??)

either would prevent exhaust blowing as we know it
(currently exhaust blowing and 'fake' recovery are inseperable)

the ideal would be a tight limit on total fuel (load) quantity
although this would conflict with the F1 concept of limiting fuel rate
there is no sign of a tight fuel quantity limit, the new rules drive 'fake' recovery by in principle providing 'free' fuel for this
it will be interesting to see how Moto GP progresses in its fuel limit policy

[autogyro]

The mgu produces negative torque through the geartrain even if the engine produces zero torque.

The mgu produces positive torque when used as a motor.
It does not produce negative torque.

Negative torque is produced by the cars kinetic energy.

[autogyro]

for the system to be harvesting any genuine KE (ie regenerative braking) the negative torque would have to be greater (more negative) than the natural negative torque (engine braking) associated with zero fuelling after driver lifting

even then the system could be simultaneously harvesting some 'fake' energy ie coming from real-time fuel burning

the 2014 system has doubled the nominal power (of this 'recovery') to 120 kW/161 hp (Renault uses a 40 hp system now ?)
this could still be run entirely on 'fake' KE (the zero torque rule would not be broken)
and there is every reason for doing this (because the only downside is the extra fuel weight (around 4-6 kg total ?)

it would only be possible to prevent this by mandating a negative torque value that forced all such recovery to be regenerative
or try to mandate zero fuelling (without impeding gear shifting ??)

either would prevent exhaust blowing as we know it
(currently exhaust blowing and 'fake' recovery are inseperable)

the ideal would be a tight limit on total fuel (load) quantity
there is no sign of this, the new rules drive 'fake' recovery by provide free fuel for this
it will be interesting to see how Moto GP progresses in its fuel limit policy

Good post Tommy, it explainds things very well.

As I said, so long as they use an MGU on the nose of the engine, energy recovery and energy application will be dictated to by the other uses of that engine.
If this were not the case, the engine could be disconnected and switched off during deceleration, giving proper savings in energy use and allowing proper energy recovery with proper control over the geartrain, handling and rear tyre wear.

[Tommy Cookers]

The mgu produces negative torque through the geartrain even if the engine produces zero torque.

the MGU of itself can be regarded as producing positive torque to act as a motor, or negative torque to act as a generator

the current 60 kw limit corresponds to MGU torque of about 10% of max engine torque and about 2% of a brake torque equivalent
the lifted accelerator/overrun (negative) torque of a zero fuelled engine (engine braking torque) is around -20% of max engine torque

IMO any overrun fuelling is providing part or all the torque driving the generation from the MGU (compared with zero fuelling)
whenever overrun torque is raised as high as zero by fuelling all the MGU generation is powered by engine running, not by braking
because zero torque running gives all the torque (and more) required by the MGU for generation (compared with zero fuelling)
and the mechanical brakes will have to do more work (compared with zero fuelling)

fundamentally, any torque from overrun fuelling must (compared with zero fuelling) be absorbed by generation or braking
zeroing of overrun torque will exceed the torque required for generation whether or not gen torque is included in the definition

I admire the ingenuity of the engineers behind this (that's what the term once engineer meant)
generation at the MGU, by braking or otherwise, will be more difficult with much higher-powered systems in 2014

[ncassi22]

the ideal would be a tight limit on total fuel (load) quantity
there is no sign of this, the new rules drive 'fake' recovery by provide free fuel for this
it will be interesting to see how Moto GP progresses in its fuel limit policy

Don't know how old or reliable this interview with Rob White is but he seems to cover the fuel limit issue http://formula1.about.com/od/car1/a/Rob ... mula-1.htm

"First of all, there will be a quantity of fuel allocated for each race. A hundred kilos maximum - which corresponds to around 155 kilos in today's world. We have no regulatory limit today, but we use around 155 to 165 kilos of fuel in each of the cars for a race."

[WhiteBlue]

We have covered the issue of the fuel limit before. It is likely defined in the sporting regulations which are unpublished at this time. But the teams obviously know what is coming through their membership in the sporting working group. So we should trust Rob White that he knows what he is saying.

[wuzak]

I would have thought that the extra fuel used in off-throttle situations now is more to do with the exhaust blown diffusers than for charging the KERS or stabilising under braking with KERS.

[autogyro]

I would have thought that the extra fuel used in off-throttle situations now is more to do with the exhaust blown diffusers than for charging the KERS or stabilising under braking with KERS.

Yes but the Kers M/G is directly connected to the crankshaft.
Any powered use of the engine (to blow the diffuser) under deceleration prevents the M/G from doing its job, which is to recover energy from braking.
However this condition occurs only during the gearshifts.

[rjsa]

I would have thought that the extra fuel used in off-throttle situations now is more to do with the exhaust blown diffusers than for charging the KERS or stabilising under braking with KERS.

Yes but the Kers M/G is directly connected to the crankshaft.
Any powered use of the engine (to blow the diffuser) under deceleration prevents the M/G from doing its job, which is to recover energy from braking.
However this condition occurs only during the gearshifts.

No it doesn't. As stated around here the engine is burning to counter engine braking all along, gears engagend periods inclusive.