Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Hakosuka
Hakosuka
0
Joined: 18 Mar 2013, 17:02

Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

Hi everyone

I have been reading the F1technical technology section for a while but this is the first time I need some expert help on a subject. I'm currently doing a study on different types of brake discs and to explore an intersting end of the spectrum I want to learn more about F1 brake disc. I've used the search but didnt' really come up with the information I need.

Does have a good paper for me to read on these discs? What forces are applied and how big these forces are. For instance compressive strength of these discs etc... The evolution of alloys ( steel to carbon ceramic,... ) over the years...
The lot actually :D. I need as much information as I can about the discs themselves. So any good book, pdf, paper or information you guys could give me would be much appriciated.

Kind regards

User avatar
Kiril Varbanov
147
Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 15:00
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

Hi,
Off the top of my head:

- Excellent article about brakes and their components within the site.

- Brembo brake disc - How is it made? - Video

- General one from Mercedes AMG and Nico R.

- Brake balance and facts from Caterham.

Hakosuka
Hakosuka
0
Joined: 18 Mar 2013, 17:02

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

Thanks Kiril

I have already seen the first two links and they indeed are very useful. The last 2 I have not and I will watch them now.
I'm currently looking for a way to determine how much force is applied on the disc by the brake pads and how big the surface is of the brake pads covering the disc.

Also, I have seen graphs before about bite and consistency of carbon and steel brakes under different temperatures corresponding with different friction rates. Does anyone know where I can get these kind of graphs?

Kind regards

User avatar
Kiril Varbanov
147
Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 15:00
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

I can't tell about the graphs, but I will try to find out about the force, I mean, specific data, apart from the general "What force is needed to stop 700 kg car moving with 60 m/s", for example.

User avatar
Kiril Varbanov
147
Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 15:00
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

Best info I've got from my Brembo friends is the one listed on their website, for example the braking characteristics for certain track, take Bahrain and turn 14:
- Braking power - 2.877 kW
- Pedal force - 174 kg

I understand that this is not exactly what you wanted, but that's all I've got for now.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

Brembo is using since SIngapore 2012 a new material: CER

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... /1007.html

http://www.moderntiredealer.com/news/st ... eason.aspx
Lower wear of brake system thanks to new CER and customization of systems
Material is considerably changed as well. New CER represents an evolution of CCR material that considerably reduces wear, guaranteeing more effective thermic conductivity. Compared to previous material, CER offers excellent warm-up time, that is, maximum rapidity in reaching more efficient operating temperatures; a wide application range in terms of both pressure and temperature; and very smooth friction performance. All these features provide the driver with a perfect modulation of the braking system. The incredibly low wear results in more reliable performance from the start to the end of race.
#AeroFrodo

tathan
tathan
3
Joined: 19 Mar 2011, 02:59

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

Kiril Varbanov wrote:Pedal force - 174 kg
I've seen figures like this before and they're staggering if that's the force exerted by the driver... Surely that must include mechanical advantage, i.e. that's the force at the cylinder, not the force at the pedal? I know they're amazingly fit but if they can quickly leg press 174kg with one leg, accurately and hundreds of times over, then they are not actually human.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

You can't excert that much force from 1 leg, impossible. At my local fitness place we have a leg press machine, which goes up to 180kg. It's roughly the same position as a f1 car, but of course you use both legs. I've done 180kg before, and that is a massive undertaking for both the legs. One leg can't do it, certainly not a whole race. Definitely assisted.

Also fun to know: not so long ago, teams like Ferrari swapped brake disks manufacturers, for Montreal only. Each year.
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 1/760.html

That came at an end in 2011, when Brembo started producing Montreal-specific brake disks.
It's also the only circuit where you will see the brake disk exposed for maximum cooling (at expense at aero).
I'm very curious to know if that is still needed with the new material and disks Brembo are using now; the wear has gone from 4mm to 1mm (on a normal circuit) and they brought in 1000 microscopic holes in the disk for cooling. That could suffice for what is the hardest circuit, for the brakes, on the calender.
#AeroFrodo

User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

Kiril Varbanov wrote:Best info I've got from my Brembo friends is the one listed on their website, for example the braking characteristics for certain track, take Bahrain and turn 14:
- Braking power - 2.877 kW
- Pedal force - 174 kg

I understand that this is not exactly what you wanted, but that's all I've got for now.
I think the power is in the MW range rather than kW:
Assume a 650kg car slowing down at 5g at 300kmh;
Power = Force x Velocity
Power = 5g x 9.81m/ss x 650kg x 300kmh / 3.6
Power = 2 656 875W = 2.66MW

Regarding the pedal force, I'm sure its a peak value not a sustained value. I'm sure kicking at the pedal hard could see a 175kg impact force for a few ms. Brembo would use the peak value in their marketing BS since it looks more impressive.
Not the engineer at Force India

piast9
piast9
20
Joined: 16 Mar 2010, 00:39

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

turbof1 wrote:You can't excert that much force from 1 leg, impossible.
5 g of decceleration helps excerting that force on the pedal.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

piast9 wrote:
turbof1 wrote:You can't excert that much force from 1 leg, impossible.
5 g of decceleration helps excerting that force on the pedal.
That's too much force applied on your leg. Your muscles in the leg will shred. In reality your are seated very firm in the cockpit and seat. The g forces aren't going to apply on your legs.

Like Tim Wright said, it's probably a peak value.
#AeroFrodo

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
648
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

tathan wrote:
Kiril Varbanov wrote:Pedal force - 174 kg
I've seen figures like this before and they're staggering if that's the force exerted by the driver... Surely that must include mechanical advantage, i.e. that's the force at the cylinder, not the force at the pedal? I know they're amazingly fit but if they can quickly leg press 174kg with one leg, accurately and hundreds of times over, then they are not actually human.
IIRC Alan Staniforth said that Graham Hill 'could press 400 lb on the brake pedal'
I suspect he liked it that way, to have an advantage over slighter team-mates eg Richie Ginther and Jacky Stewart

presumably the leg would have to be very close to dead straight, quite possible with tiny pedal travel ?
the problem is the great but rapidly reducing force required, so a fixed assistance ratio is not ideal either ?
rule book, anyone ?

olefud
olefud
79
Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

“Pedal force” is a bit ambiguous in that it could be the force before or after the pedal lever ratio force multiplication –or even the force from the pedal after additional hydraulic force amplification. Still Indy car run perhaps 165 lbs. initial force on the pedal. At maybe 6 Gs negative acceleration, modulating rather than generating the force may be the problem.

thepowerofnone
thepowerofnone
23
Joined: 24 Apr 2013, 17:21

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

I would recommend that you not only research the forces required but much more importantly, HOW an F1 driver would apply them. As turbof1 points out, this is a peak value, but a believable one: most men would be able to stand with a 100kg deadlift on their back, which admittedly is through two legs, but an athlete could be expected to peak 175kg in one leg no problem.

Anyway, as I was saying, given you are applying your research to F1, I cannot emphasise enough how important it is that you consider driver technique. With an aero-heavy car the general technique is a large force which trails off as you turn in (unsurprisingly known as "trail braking"). This is done for three reasons: 1) at the point just before you break the car is travelling at its fastest speed, and so it is generating maximum downforce, therefore the tyres are capable of sustaining the maximum braking load 2) the tyres are limited by a g-force circle (or more accurately, oval) which limits the force they can supply at any one time, and so to maximise cornering loads you need to make sure that you aren't braking or accelerating at that time 3) braking hard loads the front tyres and helps with turn in. Much of this you may already be aware of, but make sure you put two and two together and look at a good few telemetry graphs when doing your research, it should allow you to form a function of braking force with time. You won't find any new ones for F1, but I wouldn't be surprised if a cheeky photo of an F3 one were kicking about somewhere, and those car produce similar downforce and similar driving styles to F1.

There we are, found some for you: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/ ... emetry.png
Obviously beware believing it too much, it looks like its some sort of simulator from their website, but it shows you braking trails nicely.

User avatar
ringo
231
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Formule 1 brake discs and everything involved!

Post

What exactly are you writing about the brakes?
History of the advancement in brake technology, or are you doing an analysis?
For Sure!!