Red Bull RB9 Renault

[turbof1]

For a sake of new -1 on my reputation i agree with all previous posts. Adding new 2 elements on front wings means they running in dead end with devolopment, because you cannot find anymore aero performances, so you trying to have constant downforce and with many small slots trying to get from best optimal package to use. It's called refining already existing package. Renault 2006 already did that, trying to refine already optimum package with many small parts, wings slots on existing package to get what they already have on best optimum lvl.

When you see team who constantly bringing updates as completly new front wing, floor, or diffirent type of rear wing solution then you can see this car have space devolopment to make constant progress in bringing more downforce. But when you see like Red Bull just refine's on package it means there is no more room for something new as only to optimise what they already have.

It's logical. Each new car from them is just an evolution of the previous, and with aero rules being stable, there isn't much to find anymore. The car and it's philosophy are at their peak after 5 years.

[wesley123]

That's something that was already said since 2011, and still they keep on going.

[Neno]

That's something that was already said since 2011, and still they keep on going.

Well from 2011 to 2012 it was big difference. Team needed to get rid of EBD, so they needed to find new way for car devoloping, it was coanda, later DDRS, tunnel ramp in Valencia, buut 2012 was same for everybody so car's changed that much from beggining. But if you see 2011 car looked almost same all year, from beginning car was on optimum lvl it only needed some small refinements, as we have it today. Only difference from that season was Red Bull had EBD advantage, 1 sec per lap on everybody else, this year they dont or they will say "tires wont let them lap everybody two times in row"...

[zac510]

Despite my previous post in jest, it is one of the areas of the car's bodywork that is not crazily controlled by regulations so it's probably not that surprising most teams change it on what seems like a race by race basis.

The control of the front wing is, however in aerodynamic balance; the rear downforce must be in balance. If RBR are seeking more front downforce they must have more rear downforce to balance it?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

It's interesting how the F1 world usually talks about other teams copying RB with respect to updates and teams certainly do copy RB. However RB does copy other teams as well and I'm specifically talking about Ferrari right now. Double gurney flaps at the rear of car above diffuser, 6 & 7 element FW's. I've also just spotted another thing that is small but has went unnoticed.

RB in Spain updated their FWEP, and while not the exact same as Ferrari, it's still inspired from the Ferrari FW. I'm speaking of the convex shape at the trailing edge of the FWEP.

Bahrain


via Sutton


Spain

Original
via Sutton


Ferrari FWEP

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I'm not sure they do have the down force advantage people claim. If they had more DF than everyone else, they should be sitting on pole. I'm starting to believe their excess tire wear just comes from a lack tire understanding. Maybe they're capable of more DF than other cars, but they don't seem to be running that way. Their poles in the wet and cold might have come from the fact that they abuse the tires(heating them up) rather than any DF advantage.

I was skeptical too of the RB claim that they were taking DF off of the car in order to better preserve the tyres but Mark Hughes from AutoSport says Pirelli, who have access to cars telemetry & data, confirm Red Bull do indeed have more DF than all the other teams. Which is interesting to say the very least.


http://app.racer.com/mobile/pages/appar ... eid=294013

[Neno]

I'm not sure they do have the down force advantage people claim. If they had more DF than everyone else, they should be sitting on pole. I'm starting to believe their excess tire wear just comes from a lack tire understanding. Maybe they're capable of more DF than other cars, but they don't seem to be running that way. Their poles in the wet and cold might have come from the fact that they abuse the tires(heating them up) rather than any DF advantage.

I was skeptical too of the RB claim that they were taking DF off of the car in order to better preserve the tyres but Mark Hughes from AutoSport says Pirelli, who have access to cars telemetry & data, confirm Red Bull do indeed have more DF than all the other teams. Which is interesting to say the very least.


http://app.racer.com/mobile/pages/appar ... eid=294013

How can anyone acces to cars telemetry and personal data's of teams. Yes i understand FIA have those data's, but really no one can tell you from those data's how much each team have downforce, there is no data where it's say i have this point of downforce on front wing, this much on rear wing, this much on floor, and this much all together. This are very personal data's who only engineers of teams who design own car's have. Someone can run in CFD simulation of your wing and tell you how much front downforce this wing have but this is only in theory assumption. Also Red Bull is only team who dont care about anything on car then downforce, not even tires. When you see team who need Pirelli to create special tires for their car, you know that team didnt care about tire datas, or used those datas in equation for designing the car. I am very glad, their ego hit limit about how great they are and now they feel the consequences about that.

[Ozan]

I'm not sure they do have the down force advantage people claim. If they had more DF than everyone else, they should be sitting on pole. I'm starting to believe their excess tire wear just comes from a lack tire understanding. Maybe they're capable of more DF than other cars, but they don't seem to be running that way. Their poles in the wet and cold might have come from the fact that they abuse the tires(heating them up) rather than any DF advantage.

I was skeptical too of the RB claim that they were taking DF off of the car in order to better preserve the tyres but Mark Hughes from AutoSport says Pirelli, who have access to cars telemetry & data, confirm Red Bull do indeed have more DF than all the other teams. Which is interesting to say the very least.


http://app.racer.com/mobile/pages/appar ... eid=294013

what may be the source of that most-downforce producing ability ?

[wesley123]

How can anyone acces to cars telemetry and personal data's of teams. Yes i understand FIA have those data's, but really no one can tell you from those data's how much each team have downforce, there is no data where it's say i have this point of downforce on front wing, this much on rear wing, this much on floor, and this much all together. This are very personal data's who only engineers of teams who design own car's have. Someone can run in CFD simulation of your wing and tell you how much front downforce this wing have but this is only in theory assumption. Also Red Bull is only team who dont care about anything on car then downforce, not even tires. When you see team who need Pirelli to create special tires for their car, you know that team didnt care about tire datas, or used those datas in equation for designing the car. I am very glad, their ego hit limit about how great they are and now they feel the consequences about that.

There are such things as "force" that will reach through the suspension and push the tires onto the road. And that is noticable on Telemetry. It isnt exactly rocket science(But dont ask me to do it!) to get an estimate number out of that.

With that said, Pirelli needs those force info to build tires that actually work(sort of) with every car, so that we dont get tires not lasting, or tire failures(which we have).

Not getting these numbers forces Pirelli to do wild guesses(and based on their test car), which can go terribly wrong with the development rate of F1. For example(not F1, but it shows what tire manufacturers have to deal with and what happens when they get it wrong);http://www.mulsannescorner.com/RoadAtlanta1992.html

[marcush.]

you got gps signals and track data so it should be possible to derive cornering speeds accelerations and sideload gs from that info ...
without REDBULL showing much data.

[Neno]

you got gps signals and track data so it should be possible to derive cornering speeds accelerations and sideload gs from that info ...
without REDBULL showing much data.

well those are not real data's, someone can gear up and setup his car much more for speed cornering and greater acceleration, but those dose not mean car have bigger downforce then rest. it's only means that car is closer to driving it on his maximum trough corners.

[Huntresa]

you got gps signals and track data so it should be possible to derive cornering speeds accelerations and sideload gs from that info ...
without REDBULL showing much data.

well those are not real data's, someone can gear up and setup his car much more for speed cornering and greater acceleration, but those dose not mean car have bigger downforce then rest. it's only means that car is closer to driving it on his maximum trough corners.

If you dont have the downforce you wont take the corner at a certain speed, thats how it works.

[Neno]

you got gps signals and track data so it should be possible to derive cornering speeds accelerations and sideload gs from that info ...
without REDBULL showing much data.

well those are not real data's, someone can gear up and setup his car much more for speed cornering and greater acceleration, but those dose not mean car have bigger downforce then rest. it's only means that car is closer to driving it on his maximum trough corners.

If you dont have the downforce you wont take the corner at a certain speed, thats how it works.

nope not really, sauber are excellent in high-speed corners, that dose not mean they have greatest downforce lvl, someone is fast trough low speed corners, that dose not mean either it. you can't conclude on that how car are fast and how much downforce they have.. but we are going offtopic.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

How can anyone acces to cars telemetry and personal data's of teams. Yes i understand FIA have those data's, but really no one can tell you from those data's how much each team have downforce, there is no data where it's say i have this point of downforce on front wing, this much on rear wing, this much on floor, and this much all together. This are very personal data's who only engineers of teams who design own car's have. Someone can run in CFD simulation of your wing and tell you how much front downforce this wing have but this is only in theory assumption. Also Red Bull is only team who dont care about anything on car then downforce, not even tires. When you see team who need Pirelli to create special tires for their car, you know that team didnt care about tire datas, or used those datas in equation for designing the car. I am very glad, their ego hit limit about how great they are and now they feel the consequences about that.

Pirelli does have access to the teams telemetry and other telemetry is uploaded by the teams for use by Pirelli, which would include load values on suspension members in which DF levels can be derived. It's almost absurd to think Pirelli wouldn't be given load measurements & other data from all the teams cars. Anyway, below is proof Pirelli do in fact have access to telemetry, although I'm not sure why you think a journo of Mark Hughes status would lie about such a thing.


"When out on track, the car sends telemetry data relating to tyre pressures, temperatures, wear and
degradation – which is all recorded on the tablets of the Pirelli engineers.
This data is correlated with the car set-up and other telemetry recorded by the teams and
sent to the central server. The accumulated data is always available for Pirelli’s engineers to
consult in real time from the track."

Link

[raymondu999]

nope not really, sauber are excellent in high-speed corners, that dose not mean they have greatest downforce lvl, someone is fast trough low speed corners, that dose not mean either it. you can't conclude on that how car are fast and how much downforce they have.. but we are going offtopic.

They don't have to reverse engineer cornering speeds. They will (as the tyre engineers) obviously have access to data on how much vertical load is going through the tyre.

Yes, you could say that the Red Bull could be set up for quicker cornering - but looking at the skinny rear wings that Red Bull have on, compared to rival wings - that's probably the opposite of what is true. If a Red Bull with skinny wings is producing greater cornering speeds than a Lotus/Ferrari/Mercedes with fat wings - then that does indeed indicate that the chassis in and of itself is much better at downforce creation. Either that - or their rear wing is a hell of a lot better (more efficient)