Red Bull RB9 Renault

[wesley123]

They run lower rear and front wing angles to reduce the amount of df they have. Why? Becuase they have more df, and that more df is hurting their tires really bad, so they had to take df out to make them last.

[Pierce89]

I'm not sure they do have the down force advantage people claim. If they had more DF than everyone else, they should be sitting on pole. I'm starting to believe their excess tire wear just comes from a lack tire understanding. Maybe they're capable of more DF than other cars, but they don't seem to be running that way. Their poles in the wet and cold might have come from the fact that they abuse the tires(heating them up) rather than any DF advantage.

I was skeptical too of the RB claim that they were taking DF off of the car in order to better preserve the tyres but Mark Hughes from AutoSport says Pirelli, who have access to cars telemetry & data, confirm Red Bull do indeed have more DF than all the other teams. Which is interesting to say the very least.


http://app.racer.com/mobile/pages/appar ... eid=294013

You've got to consider the fact that this is an opinion piece from a person who's always criticized both Ferrari and Pirelli. Besides, if the Red Bull was truly superior and this story was totally accurate, RBR should be able to reduce DF to the "optimum" level and do the same race pace as Ferrari.

[Pierce89]

They run lower rear and front wing angles to reduce the amount of df they have. Why? Becuase they have more df, and that more df is hurting their tires really bad, so they had to take df out to make them last.

Then why can't they reduce it to the "optimum" and run the same race pace as Ferrari? It's clearly not ALL about too much DF.

[Huntresa]

If anything it might be that the df isn't where you want it, as in they have to much on certain areas and it just doesn't help by reducing rw angle, cause I mean we know that red bull have the best package when it comes to creating downforce.

There is a nice pic in the sauber thread right now showing how downforce is created over their car, go look at it and think beyond just to much df, cause its not just to much or little

[beelsebob]

If anything it might be that the df isn't where you want it, as in they have to much on certain areas and it just doesn't help by reducing rw angle, cause I mean we know that red bull have the best package when it comes to creating downforce.

I wish people would stop running with that assumption.

We know the RB6 and RB7 had more downforce than their competitors. I don't think it's clear for the RB8 or RB9 at all – I would argue that the MP4-27 clearly had more than the RB8, I would probably argue that the F138 and W04 look like having more than the RB9.

Do you have evidence that the RB9 has more than any other?

[Pierce89]

If anything it might be that the df isn't where you want it, as in they have to much on certain areas and it just doesn't help by reducing rw angle, cause I mean we know that red bull have the best package when it comes to creating downforce.

I wish people would stop running with that assumption.

We know the RB6 and RB7 had more downforce than their competitors. I don't think it's clear for the RB8 or RB9 at all – I would argue that the MP4-27 clearly had more than the RB8, I would probably argue that the F138 and W04 look like having more than the RB9.

Do you have evidence that the RB9 has more than any other?

It seems you and I are the only people here not willing to blindly assume Red Bull "really has the best car but the tires hide it". In previous years, I've seen footage to prove Red Bull's DF advantage. This year no one has managed to produce such footage. The only poles they achieved were in mixed conditions well off of the ultimate pace. Vettel is yet to beat Alonso when both have had a clean race. Five races in and all we really know, so far, is that the W04 is demon in quali, the F138 and E21 are demons in race stints, and the RB9 is slightly behind the leaders in both.

[Huntresa]

If anything it might be that the df isn't where you want it, as in they have to much on certain areas and it just doesn't help by reducing rw angle, cause I mean we know that red bull have the best package when it comes to creating downforce.

I wish people would stop running with that assumption.

We know the RB6 and RB7 had more downforce than their competitors. I don't think it's clear for the RB8 or RB9 at all – I would argue that the MP4-27 clearly had more than the RB8, I would probably argue that the F138 and W04 look like having more than the RB9.

Do you have evidence that the RB9 has more than any other?

Well we cant know we can only go by what they themself has said and experts.

We only know they run/ran lower RW angle compared to other teams, which does create lower downforce, which would show they dont need as much from the back of the car or its just a case where they have good rear downrforce from their diffuser + coanda so they can sacrifice RW downforce for more top speed.

We only know one thing and thats that we dont actually know and prob never will

[beelsebob]

Well we cant know we can only go by what they themself has said and experts.

We only know they run/ran lower RW angle compared to other teams, which does create lower downforce, which would show they dont need as much from the back of the car or its just a case where they have good rear downrforce from their diffuser + coanda so they can sacrifice RW downforce for more top speed.

We only know one thing and thats that we dont actually know and prob never will

Agreed with pretty much everything you've said here, however. I don't think you can conclude that the RedBull has more downforce from the fact that they're running a skinny rear wing. The fact that they do that, and yet still don't have the highest top speeds suggests that some other part of the car is generating a lot of drag and downforce. So while I agree that RedBull rely less on their rear wing than other teams, I don't agree that the overall downforce of the car, or the overall L/D is clearly any better than any other top team.

[hollus]

We do know they tend to have some of the lowest top speeds, so likely plenty of drag and some of the fastest lap times, so plenty of pace. That only works through plenty of downforce.

[beelsebob]

We do know they tend to have some of the lowest top speeds, so likely plenty of drag and some of the fastest lap times, so plenty of pace. That only works through plenty of downforce.

Right, the point being that "red bull are dropping downforce production from their rear wing" does not imply that RedBull have more downforce than everyone else, it implies that they are generating it in a different place to everyone else. An alternative way to say the same thing is "Ferrari, Merc, etc are all trimming down their <insert place where red bull are generating drag and downforce>", as opposed to "RedBull are trimming down their rear wing".

[Huntresa]

Yeah but what would this place be tho, where they are generating more downforce and getting drag, i mean it cant be their Coanda can it? Since EBDs and Coanda are pretty dragless, no ? Or atleast Coanda has some drag with the bodywork being bigger in that area.

[beelsebob]

Yeah but what would this place be tho, where they are generating more downforce and getting drag, i mean it cant be their Coanda can it? Since EBDs and Coanda are pretty dragless, no ? Or atleast Coanda has some drag with the bodywork being bigger in that area.

I suspect it has a lot to do with diffuser design, and not really to do with the exhausts. The car has had this characteristic of trimming off rear wing downforce since the RB6, so that suggests to me that RedBull have found a way of making the diffuser work significantly harder than the rest of the teams, but that it has a pretty damn high drag penalty.

[turbof1]

The only way I can think of such a case is the excessive use of vortices which seal off the diffuser at various places and guide the air better.

Could explain why they have a hard time on tracks like canada and italy, where everybody throws away the rear wing drag. Red bull are stuck with a diffuser which would stall if they remove vortice generating bodywork.

[Blackout]

It's obvious RBR is relying very much on the exhaust gases and the vortices that run between the tires and the diffuser. They are studying and developing that area since many years. And as you know, 2013 tires behave/deform differently than the previous tires, so could it be one of the reasons why they are struggling a bit ? maybe their diffuser dosnt work as good as before beacause of the new tire aero and it makes the car slide too much... maybe the tires are overheating because of the gases flowing the wrong way... maybe they need to rework their floor and diffuser to adapt them to the new tires... Maybe the only thing they need is time...

[bhall]

[...]

We only know they run/ran lower RW angle compared to other teams, which does create lower downforce, which would show they dont need as much from the back of the car or its just a case where they have good rear downrforce from their diffuser + coanda so they can sacrifice RW downforce for more top speed.

We only know one thing and thats that we dont actually know and prob never will

Despite its lower AoA, I don't think we can assume Red Bull gets less downforce from the rear wing. Within airflow of a high enough mass flow rate, a wing with a low AoA can produce just as much downforce as one with a high AoA in airflow of a lower mass flow rate, and it will do so for less drag. It's all about efficiency.

Even a cursory glance at the RB9's minimal sidepods and narrow engine cover makes it pretty easy to see how both allow for a higher mass flow rate to the rear of the car. (Check out the C32 and F138 for additional evidence of this relationship. Both cars have rear wings with substantially less AoA than were run last year on cars which had more ample sidepods and Coke bottles.)



Beyond that, everything is a part of a system. The rear wing works with the beam wing, which works with the diffuser, which works with the sidepods, which work with the front wing. Change one variable, such as dialing down the rear wing, and everything else will change with it.

So, you're right that we don't really know anything. We're looking for a needle in a needlestack.

I've lately wondered if Red Bull's recent aero-dominance came at the expense of sound suspension development. Good aero requires a very stable platform, which isn't exactly conducive to making best use of the tires (see: W04, W03). Such a platform can also penalize low-speed traction, which isn't very conducive to achieving high top-speeds (see: F2012). Neither are competitive problems as long as you have durable tires that can take the abuse and a level of overall aerodynamic efficiency that overcomes the lack of sheer speed (see: RB8, RB7, RB6, etc). But, as with a car's total aerodynamic system, if you change one thing - in this case the tires - everything will change with it.