Ferrari F138

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Ferrari F138

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wesley123 wrote:[...]

It is to create a multiple element wing and nothing more. Like said, they have been running(and other teams have too) it since early 2011, so no tricks here(unless ofc the trick was applied already in 2011, then copied by other teams without any knowledge of any of the reporters like Scarbs etc. etc.)
Everyone missed Red Bull's DDRS in Singapore last year, and I still haven't read anything about Ferrari's new wing - not even a cursory mention - even though it was introduced in Barcelona. Not everything is spelled out neatly.

At any rate, we were both wrong. The slots on the Ferrari, and indeed in most cases, are to reduce the strength of tip vortices produced by the wing. I imagine the larger ducts are just a way to more effectively use the change in air pressure that occurs when DRS is open, a la the W02.

thisisatest
thisisatest
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Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 00:59

Re: Ferrari F138

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flyboy2160 wrote:Did it seem to anybody else that his right front didn't turn right like the left front just after the lockup? He turns the steering wheel more and more, but it looks to me like the right front doesn't turn at all. Maybe I've had too many beers......

Starts at about 28 seconds in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1lepdwk9kk
i watched the vid over and over and see what you mean. i think it's an optical illusion, though.
the camera is high, they run a bunch of negative camber. when he's going straight, the tires look tilted in.
also, if you watch the replay with one hand over the left tire, the right tire is definitely reacting to steering input.
it's also possible that they run anti-ackerman steering geometry? i dont know what the trend is with respect to that in F1. i believe they run a good bit of toe-out up front, so initial anti-ackerman could even things out or be counterproductive, depending on perspective...

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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Ferrari F138

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I say the rear brakes failed, causing the fronts to lock, resulting in a loss of grip and straight you go.
It is basically a copy of the Schumacher crash in Singapore. With the detail that in both cases a technical failure is obvious and even reported by the driver but then the team tries to hide that and blames the driver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQZ11T3M_X8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmhPOrFonU

What they try to hide is that some parts of the brake system are operated very close and often over their limit. The probably fear that their cars are declared unsafe to race. Most teams face the same problems because they use the same parts and have very similar brake cooling layouts. A little disturbance and the system overheats and fails. This could be caused by a safety car or by a bit of rubber debris covering the intakes.

radosav
radosav
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 20:46

Re: Ferrari F138

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I know it was hard impact when Massa's F138 hit the wall, but the car fell apart like it was made of light matches!

stefan_
stefan_
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Joined: 04 Feb 2012, 12:43
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Ferrari F138

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radosav wrote:I know it was hard impact when Massa's F138 hit the wall, but the car fell apart like it was made of light matches!
That's the whole point - for the car to fall apart (various parts to break and absorb the shocks) and the driver to be safe.
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Ferrari F138

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The crash is the same as yesterday. I don't think it's a driver's error. Or perhaps the car is very very unstable on braking.

bizadfar
bizadfar
0
Joined: 03 Jan 2007, 15:51

Re: Ferrari F138

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Was there any comment from the team in regards to the 1st accident?

Possibly KERS related as there seemed to be barely any rear retardation and available brake torque was applied to the fronts.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Ferrari F138

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bhallg2k wrote:
wesley123 wrote:[...]

It is to create a multiple element wing and nothing more. Like said, they have been running(and other teams have too) it since early 2011, so no tricks here(unless ofc the trick was applied already in 2011, then copied by other teams without any knowledge of any of the reporters like Scarbs etc. etc.)
Everyone missed Red Bull's DDRS in Singapore last year, and I still haven't read anything about Ferrari's new wing - not even a cursory mention - even though it was introduced in Barcelona. Not everything is spelled out neatly.
1. They missed the DDRS by one race.
2. You havent read anything about the Ferrari's new wing because there is nothing to talk about.
At any rate, we were both wrong.
What??
The slots on the Ferrari, and indeed in most cases, are to reduce the strength of tip vortices produced by the wing.

I imagine the larger ducts are just a way to more effectively use the change in air pressure that occurs when DRS is open, a la the W02.
Really? I dont see how you can suddenly go to a magic aero stalling device to something that reduces tip vortices. Not to mention the article you posted says nothing about the three plane wing. It talks about the notched end plate, and the slots in the wing, not about multiple elements.

Also, the image you posted shows that I am right. This duct you are talking about(the one in the middle, I asume) Is nothing more than to grab air from the free central 15cm and spread it across the rear wing. Effectively creating a 3 plane wing. Oh, and the image you posted is from the 2010 W01, which didnt have DRS
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Mui
Mui
0
Joined: 20 Apr 2012, 15:30

Re: Ferrari F138

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timbo wrote:The crash is the same as yesterday. I don't think it's a driver's error. Or perhaps the car is very very unstable on braking.
Think of it this way. After the crash It looked like they replaced everything except for the tub so what you're left with is the tub and obviously massa. It could be a combination of both but who knows.

stefan_
stefan_
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Joined: 04 Feb 2012, 12:43
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Ferrari F138

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Image
via Pius Gassó
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

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sucof
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Joined: 23 Nov 2012, 12:15

Re: Ferrari F138

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At this level of racing, reasons must be normally very tiny, behind failures, so if the driver error was tiny, it will be hardly recognizable for us. Also there must be something on the track, and about the car what caused Massa to make the error twice.
I vote for that the track, the car, and Massa caused this, together.

stefan_
stefan_
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Joined: 04 Feb 2012, 12:43
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Ferrari F138

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Monaco 2013 - Sunday (26.05.2013)

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"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Ferrari F138

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wesley123 wrote:[...]
Really? I dont see how you can suddenly go to a magic aero stalling device to something that reduces tip vortices.
[...]
Easily. I applied both simple research and critical thought to draw to my own conclusion about a system for which several possibilities exist. The difference between "stalling" a wing with a jet or energizing the boundary layer with a jet rests with how the jet is oriented to the wing. Perpendicular flow from a jet will "stall" the wing (think F-ducts), while parallel flow from a jet will energize the boundary layer (like multi-element wings). Because it makes very little sense to create a multi-element section from the outer fraction of the rear wing, I initially worked from the idea that the current Ferrari solution serves to reduce drag by "stalling" the wing. I now think was wrong.

Tip vortices are a major source of drag from the rear wing. Teams reduce these vortices with louvers cut into the endplates to reduce the high pressure that lends strength to them. A movable flap means these vortices are shed from two different places depending upon the position of the flap. When closed, they're shed from top corner of the flap (yellow dot); when open, they're shed from the top corner of the main plane (blue dot).

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I contend that the new features on the Ferrari wing further reduce pressure when the DRS flap is open to minimize the vortex shed from the main plane. I believe this to be true, because the inlet is in an area of relatively lower pressure on top of the wing, and this area of relative low pressure moves forward when DRS is enabled. I think that should feed the duct to further reduce pressure. (Again, these concepts are explained here.)

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I'm not saying this is some revolutionary thing; just an optimization of current practices.

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Ferrari F138

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Umm, I fail to see why the fuss about those edge slots. IIRC they been on the car last year, and perhaps in 2011.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Ferrari F138

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timbo wrote:Umm, I fail to see why the fuss about those edge slots. IIRC they been on the car last year, and perhaps in 2011.
Ferrari have ran them since early 2011 already. Teams like RBR, LRGP, Mercedes GP and others already run such a thing.

People are thinking too hard and see a DDRS, DRD, or F-Duct system in any possible thing now, we have already seen a blown Tea-tray strut this year
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender