Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 2013?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
biggs
biggs
0
Joined: 13 May 2013, 21:19

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

Well for Hamilton, the easiest way to explain why you have not performed as anticipated is to start blaming the car is not suitable to your needs.
Its strange he dosent come out and whine when he is beating Rosberg
The greatest drivers always tend to be able to adjust and get on top of it, Mercedes is probably the team with the greatest expertise and resourses at the moment. They are also waiting for Paddy to arrive.

If the braking issues are still there for Hamilton when the season comes to a close, then either
1) Mercedes engineers are crap
or
2) Hamilton is just a sore loser, there werent any brake problems in the first place its all made up
Last edited by biggs on 01 Jun 2013, 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

I think he genuinely has a problem.
In Monaco he was genuinely happy to start 2nd. Same in Barcelona.
It´s not the type of response you would get from someone who has a perfect car with nothing else to blame but himself.
We have also seen that when it´s his fault he haven´t shied away from taking all of the blame, like the pit incident.

Looking at Monaco it´s quite interesting, both Vettel and Hamilton said they could not switch on their tires in the first sector and only started coming alive in S2 and S3. Coincidentally Hamilton despite his problems was faster then Rosberg in both of them.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

biggs
biggs
0
Joined: 13 May 2013, 21:19

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

SectorOne wrote:I think he genuinely has a problem.
In Monaco he was genuinely happy to start 2nd. Same in Barcelona.
It´s not the type of response you would get from someone who has a perfect car with nothing else to blame but himself.
We have also seen that when it´s his fault he haven´t shied away from taking all of the blame, like the pit incident.

Looking at Monaco it´s quite interesting, both Vettel and Hamilton said they could not switch on their tires in the first sector and only started coming alive in S2 and S3. Coincidentally Hamilton despite his problems was faster then Rosberg in both of them.

Lewis has openly admitted Rosberg is faster a few times already.
NOT just in Monaco.

Ever since HAM arrived at Mercedes his carried a more "trying to fit in attitude". Something thats much different compared to his days a Mclaren.

His response to being 2nd to Rosberg is " Oh I've struggled all year, brakes dont suit me, i've never been comfortable in the car except for China when the guys changed something, ....blah blah blah"

Why dosen't the BBC or SkyF1 reporters ask him " So why didn't you say that before Rosberg started to beat you?"

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

He´s happy to reach 2nd on the grid because he´s struggling. Meaning he expected worse.

FP1 5th,
FP2 2nd
FP3 5th
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

biggs
biggs
0
Joined: 13 May 2013, 21:19

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

SectorOne wrote:He´s happy to reach 2nd on the grid because he´s struggling. Meaning he expected worse.
FP1 5th,
FP2 2nd
FP3 5th
FP times don't have much meaning on race weekends.
The team and drivers are on different fuel loads, trying different configurations and on different programs.
So FP times or testing times don't neccessarily reflect the real picture.

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

When his teammate tops every single one of them i think it does to an extent.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

The quali different was a couple hundreths, i don't really see an issue here with his pace.
Rosberg is simply using his head, and Hamilton has the target on his back. Rosberg may have a better start to understanding the tyres and the car, but Hamilton is still fairly ahead on points.
What will happen is Lewis may realize what's going on with the car similarly to what he did in 2007 and 2010.
I still see hamilton as the stronger racer. Rosberg still has a question mark when it comes to the "X" factor, that Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel Posses.
The coming races will be quite interesting. I do expect Rosberg to contiue with good qualifying, so long as there's no pressure and he has a headstart on the setup in the practice sessions.

The rivalry that i find most satisfying and hilarious is the perez and button one. Perez is really piling on the pressure. He looks like he'll be the top dog in Mclaren 3/4 way into the season. He's a very hungry driver. Seems hungrier than Jenson.
Jenson seems to be faster, but Perez is very racy.
For Sure!!

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

what now`?
Perez getting the upper hand on Button when Hamilton never managed to master Button? I would stop to underestimate Jensons strength he has his weaknesses but one simply has to acknowledge Hamilton was unable to detroy him something we all expected ut yet was just making his mark on some one lap special performances but it went wrong as often as it panned out as intended.
Perez a match for Hamiilton ,I don´t see that yet.So over a year Perez does not hold a candle to Jenson.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

marcush. wrote:what now`?
Perez getting the upper hand on Button when Hamilton never managed to master Button?
Your premise is flawed. Hamilton had one down season against Button, other than that, he beat button trivially in their first year together, and would have finished more than 100 points ahead of Button in their final year had he not had serious team --- up issues.
I would stop to underestimate Jensons strength he has his weaknesses but one simply has to acknowledge Hamilton was unable to detroy him something we all expected ut yet was just making his mark on some one lap special performances but it went wrong as often as it panned out as intended.
I disagree, other than one year in which he was an unremitting disaster, he did destroy button. The points just don't say it.
Perez a match for Hamiilton ,
Not a requirement when you remove the flawed premise.
I don´t see that yet.So over a year Perez does not hold a candle to Jenson.
To be honest, while Checo is young, and hot headed, I could see it given a year or two to develop. I think we'll find Checo has the measure of Button this season, and beats him in subsequent ones.

User avatar
Cam
45
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

Depends on how you rate, what you rate (points, wins, poles, places made etc) - I'm sure the team put value on points:

2010:
Hamilton: 240
Button: 214

2011:
Hamilton: 227
Button: 270

2012:
Hamilton: 190
Button: 188

Avg over 3 years:
Hamilton: 219
Button: 224

Far from being destroyed - neither seemed to get the upper hand convincingly. Both seem quite equal and if you're playing Moneyball, well, that's another answer again isn't' it.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

Yea 2012 was quite equal... after Hamilton lost something in the order of 75 points dropping out from the lead.

In 2011, in order for Button to beat Hamilton in the points he had to have Hamilton collide with Massa 7 times and once with Kobayashi.
It needs to go really bad for Button´s teammate for him to really shine. We see it even today with Perez.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

Stradivarius
Stradivarius
1
Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 19:20

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

beelsebob wrote:
marcush. wrote:what now`?
Perez getting the upper hand on Button when Hamilton never managed to master Button?
Your premise is flawed. Hamilton had one down season against Button, other than that, he beat button trivially in their first year together, and would have finished more than 100 points ahead of Button in their final year had he not had serious team --- up issues.
How come 2011, Hamilton's down season, shouldn't count in this?

I could actually argue Button had a down season in 2012 considering his overall performance compared to Hamilton. If we exclude that one instead (blaming the Pirelli tyres for giving bingo races where even Williams could end up winning), we have two seasons where they performed more or less equal overall. Hamilton scored 26 more points than Button in 2010, and 43 less in 2011. These differences are pretty small in the big picture, considering the performance fluctuations that we see between teammates in general.

But of course, it can't be justified just excluding one season because the results don't support the desired conclusion. Overall, I would agree that Hamilton probably was better than Button, but the difference wasn't big. The difference was actually very small. Button scored more points overall, but it is true that Hamilton lost more points than Button in 2012 without being at fault himself. But even if we put Hamilton ahead based on the points he would have scored in 2012, the overall difference isn't more than around 30 points per season on average. That is no more than the difference may change from one season to another. I have actually started a little study of this fluctuation, just to get some idea of what can be considered a significant difference between two drivers (but I am not quite done yet). For example, Webber and Vettel appeared to be pretty similar in 2010, but not in 2011. That means if one driver beats his teammate one year, but by a small margin, it may well be that he is beaten by his teammate the following year.

I understand perfectly well why many people consider Hamilton to be the better driver: He usually beat Button. The problem with Hamilton is what we saw in the last race of 2012 (in addition to some bad luck earlier on). Hamilton was quicker and was fighting for the win, while Button was a bit behind. But as Hamilton was fighting for the win he was also taking higher risks and then he got together with with Hulkenberg and suddenly Button inherited the lead, while Hamilton was left with nothing. So in a race where many people would rate Hamilton in front of Button, blaming Hulkenberg for the crash, Button outscoured Hamilton with largest possible margin 25 - 0. I am not saying it wasn't Hulkenberg's fault that Hamilton retired in Brazil last year, but Hamilton didn't really reduce the risk actively either. I feel that some people underestimate the value of staying out of trouble. Even if you are a bit behind, staying out of trouble is often worth more than the points you are currently looking at, because the drivers ahead of you won't necessarily do the same. When it comes to staying out of trouble there is not doubt that Button is better than Hamilton over the 3 years they raced at McLaren and it was actually worth more points than Hamilton could make up by being quicker, although he can't be blamed for all the trouble he got into.

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

SectorOne wrote:In 2011, in order for Button to beat Hamilton in the points he had to have Hamilton collide with Massa 7 times and once with Kobayashi.
There's no point in being a "fast" driver (whatever that subjective word might mean) if you crash. As Kimi and Alonso showed last season, race craft (aka avoiding trouble) is as invaluable as speed.

The last couple of pages are in fanboy territory. Game over.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

7 Races in, and...

RedBull
Vettel has outqualified Webber 7-0
Vettel has outraced Webber 7-0
Vettel has outscored Webber 1.91:1
Clear top dog: Vettel (Same as last time)

Ferrari
Alonso has outqualified Massa 5-2
Alonso has outraced Massa 6-1
Alonso has outscored Massa 1.95:1
Clear top dog: Alonso (Same as last time)

Lotus
Raikonnen has outqualified Grosjean 7-0
Raikonnen has outraced Grosjean 6-1
Raikonnen has outscored Grosjean 3.38:1
Clear top dog: Raikonnen (Same as last time)

Mercedes
Hamilton has outqualified Rosberg 4-3
Hamilton has outraced Rosberg 5-2 (though arguably this should be 4-3 thanks to team orders)
Hamilton has outscored Rosberg 1.35:1
Fairly clear top dog: Hamilton (Same as last time)

McLaren
Button has outqualified Perez 5-2
Button has outraced Perez 4-3
Button has outscored Perez 2.08:1
Clear top dog: Button (Same as last time)

Force India
DiResta has outqualified Sutil 4-3
DiResta has outraced Sutil 5-2 (though arguably this should be 6-1 thanks to team orders)
DiResta has outscored Sutil 2:1
Clear top dog: DiResta (Same as last time)

Toro Rosso
Ricciardo has outqualified Vergne 4-3
Vergne has outraced Ricciardo 4-3
Verge has outscored Ricciardo 1.86:1
Fairly clear top dog: Vergne (Vergne ↑)

Sauber
Hulkenberg has outqualified Guttieres 7-0
Hulkenberg has outraced Guttieres 4-3
Hulkenberg has outscored Guttieres infinitely (5/0)
Clear top dog: Hulkenberg (Same as last time)

Williams
Bottas has outqualified Maldonado 5-2
Bottas has outraced Maldonado 5-2
Neither driver has scored
Fairly clear top dog: Bottas (Bottas ↑)

Marrussia
Biancci has outqualified Chilton 6-1
Biancci has outraced Chilton 6-1
Neither driver has scored
Clear top dog: Biancci (Same as last time)

Caterham
Pic has outqualified Van Der Garde 4-3
Pic has outraced Van Der Garde 6-1
Neither driver has scored
Clear top dog: Pic (Same as last time)

Key features:
• Hamilton puts an end to the rot.
• Perez starts to eat into Button again.
• Despite a poor qualifying, DiResta stamps himself all over Force India's numbers
• We have our first switcheroo! Vergne overtakes Ricciardo.
• I still have no fair, and unbiased way to make up who's clearly/fairly clearly/not at all dominating their team mate, suggestions still welcome!
• No more tis tisn't bullshit – I like posting updates on the facts after races, I'd rather Richard didn't feel obliged to stop me.
Last edited by beelsebob on 12 Jun 2013, 08:30, edited 1 time in total.

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 201

Post

Keep it factual and based on who crossed the line first, not "fastest" or "best". Then we'll all get on just fine. :D