Ferrari F138

[Kalsi]

I still think im not really able to figure out how a car can be so strong in the race day (if not the best) and not being able to do better then the average 4-5-6th place in qualifying... Car's performance apart, i really believe that this is really a matter of Q2-Q3 strategy.... Vettel is ALWAYS the first car coming out of the pitlane as he did the whole last year... Alonso is always waiting the last 3 minutes and mostly does only 1-2 laps every single time... i think they have a completely wrong approach qualifying speaking, expecially considering theyr Race pace on the carwich is really permitting them to focus on qualifying setup on free practices....

Can anyone argument on this? I want to investigate this issue

[Huntresa]

I still think im not really able to figure out how a car can be so strong in the race day (if not the best) and not being able to do better then the average 4-5-6th place in qualifying... Car's performance apart, i really believe that this is really a matter of Q2-Q3 strategy.... Vettel is ALWAYS the first car coming out of the pitlane as he did the whole last year... Alonso is always waiting the last 3 minutes and mostly does only 1-2 laps every single time... i think they have a completely wrong approach qualifying speaking, expecially considering theyr Race pace on the carwich is really permitting them to focus on qualifying setup on free practices....

Can anyone argument on this? I want to investigate this issue

What Vettel does when he puts it on pole is he does 3 or 4 quali laps at the start of the race and then starts to coast, he has done that since forever, or rather since 2010/11.

What Ferrari cant do i think is they cant make a gr8 qualifying setup without compromising their race pace which is where their strenght lies, compared to Mercedez who cant do it the other way around.

But it should be noted on the occasions Vettel dont start on pole he isnt as strong, in terms of pace, he is still strong in races but not the dominant pace that is shown when they can sprint from row 1, so somehow Red Bull can do setups certain other teams cant.

Also if you can do what Red Bull does with setting the car to more of Qual then Race you get back the tyre deg issues from Qual setup in that you run in clean air almost the entire race if your plan works.

[SectorOne]

I still think im not really able to figure out how a car can be so strong in the race day (if not the best) and not being able to do better then the average 4-5-6th place in qualifying...

It´s called 2013 Pirelli´s.

Probably the first time in history two cars absolutely dominate qualifying every single time yet whenever there´s a race at a normal circuit they are miles away from being the fastest car.

It´s not about the setup either. Both Mercedes and Red Bull set up their cars for the race as well.
This is why Nico was a little bit baffled in Spain when he took pole.

[Huntresa]

I still think im not really able to figure out how a car can be so strong in the race day (if not the best) and not being able to do better then the average 4-5-6th place in qualifying...

It´s called 2013 Pirelli´s.

Probably the first time in history two cars absolutely dominate qualifying every single time yet whenever there´s a race at a normal circuit they are miles away from being the fastest car.

It´s not about the setup either. Both Mercedes and Red Bull set up their cars for the race as well.
This is why Nico was a little bit baffled in Spain when he took pole.

Yeah but at the same time, the few occasions when Vettel hasnt had pole during the last years, the pole sitter hasnt been able to do what Vettel does on the first few laps, which is romp away.

[SectorOne]

Yeah but at the same time, the few occasions when Vettel hasnt had pole during the last years, the pole sitter hasnt been able to do what Vettel does on the first few laps, which is romp away.

Not sure what that has to do with what i said?

[Redragon]

I still think im not really able to figure out how a car can be so strong in the race day (if not the best) and not being able to do better then the average 4-5-6th place in qualifying... Car's performance apart, i really believe that this is really a matter of Q2-Q3 strategy.... Vettel is ALWAYS the first car coming out of the pitlane as he did the whole last year... Alonso is always waiting the last 3 minutes and mostly does only 1-2 laps every single time... i think they have a completely wrong approach qualifying speaking, expecially considering theyr Race pace on the carwich is really permitting them to focus on qualifying setup on free practices....

Can anyone argument on this? I want to investigate this issue

Alonso said in spanish interview that their approach in Montreal qualifying was wrong. As he only had one lap in first attempt of Q3 were he did a mistake. He thought 2 attempts would have been better.

[Huntresa]

Yeah but at the same time, the few occasions when Vettel hasnt had pole during the last years, the pole sitter hasnt been able to do what Vettel does on the first few laps, which is romp away.

Not sure what that has to do with what i said?

Well i meant it as different setups being used.

[flyboy2160]

What on earth is Gary talking about in the end of that article, the front wheels don't spin on a straight? What does that mean? ....

Me too. It's almost like he wrote the article in a foreign language and somebody translated it poorly back into English.

[allstaruk08]

i think its pretty clear he's talking about the rear tyres losing traction and spinning the wheels up (increasing the temps of the rear tyres) and obviously the front tyres wont lose traction going in a straight line.

[Pierce89]

He's not referring to wheelspin. When he says the front wheel's don't spin on the straight , he means there's no torque going through them. I thought this was fairly clear but obiously it wasn't.

[raymondu999]

Even when you're past traction-limited, your rears will still have slip - that's why they accelerate. Hence rears are heated by slip and hysteresis while the fronts only rely on hysteresis (the energy induced by the constant forming/deforming of the tyres under downforce)

[Owen.C93]

Hence rears are heated by slip and hysteresis while the fronts only rely on hysteresis (the energy induced by the constant forming/deforming of the tyres under downforce)

Just to add to that the fronts also generate their heat via slip angle from any toe in.

[stefan_]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E2vdTvxtEQ[/youtube]

[stefan_]

Great Britain 2013 - Thursday (27.06.2013)






via AMuS

[diffuser]

I still think im not really able to figure out how a car can be so strong in the race day (if not the best) and not being able to do better then the average 4-5-6th place in qualifying...

It´s called 2013 Pirelli´s.

Probably the first time in history two cars absolutely dominate qualifying every single time yet whenever there´s a race at a normal circuit they are miles away from being the fastest car.

It´s not about the setup either. Both Mercedes and Red Bull set up their cars for the race as well.
This is why Nico was a little bit baffled in Spain when he took pole.

Yeah but at the same time, the few occasions when Vettel hasnt had pole during the last years, the pole sitter hasnt been able to do what Vettel does on the first few laps, which is romp away.

You can't group all the races together. You have to look at them seperatly. In Spain, I think the Merc issue is quite simple. They can put a lot of heat into their tires really quickly and get the most out of their tires in a single lap on low fuel. Fill their car up with 150KG of fuel and make them do more than 3 or 4 laps, the tire temps start to go to far and the tires break down. This isn't a new issue for Merc they've had it for the last couple of years, all be it not as bad as this year.

RBR have a better control of the tire temperature but they're still having issues in races with High Speed corners. Basically what's helping you in Quali is hurting in the race.


Ferrari is the opposite. They take take a few laps to get their tires up to optimum temp and that's too long for Quali. If it is too cold or wet, they never do. Their is no doubt the 2013 Pirelli narrow temp operating range is a challenge.


There are probably several reasons why Vettel can romp away in some races while he struggle in others. He can probably get more out of some tracks than he can others is one reason. They also tend to set their car up with more downforce than most teams and a lower top speed. That lends itself to being difficult to get past people when your not in front.



With regards to fast quali cars struggling on Race day, I remember when Kimi was at McClaren...That car was super fast but rarely finished races. I'm sure some of those DNF were from overtemps somewhere.


Did you guys find it amazing that at Monaco, while Roseberg was doing 1:21 lap times Vettel put in a 1:16 and still he never attempted to pass Roseberg? Just goes to show what a terrible track layout Monaco is. They shouldn't race there anymore. Everyone complains about the tires but Monaco isn't a race it's a procession.