2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Just_a_fan]

Dont't forget that every team will use its own exhasut manifold design so their look should differ from the one we saw today.

Doubtful that teams will play too much with the manifolds, since they have a large influence on how well the turbo works.

I'm sure that teams will adopt different solutions to the intercooler arrangment.

From the RenaultSport press pack:

WHAT CAN BE CHANGED BETWEEN TEAMS?
The external parameters of the Power Unit can be changed and the choice will remain with the team. The exhausts and installation can be changed, so the hoses, hydraulics, air intakes and so on can be adapted to allow optimal integration.

This makes sense because RedBull, for a start, will probably want as narrow an installation as possible - Newey will still want to maximise flow to the rear of the car and having exhaust mainfolds that stick out like wings won't be looked on favourably I'm sure.

[wuzak]

Can someone explain this to me: 160bhp from the ers unit will be released with a push of a button like KERS currently or by some other method?

All ERS boost will be demanded from the throttle pedal, the electronics will work out what mix of petrol and stored energy will be used. There will be no steering wheel KERS boost button.

So the ECU will know via lets say GPS where on track the car is and will apply ERS power accordingly? Or is it purely throttle related? How about tracks where full throthle is less than 35s, like monaco?

It will be tunable via a map selection switch on the steering wheel.

[bhall]

[...]
Or is it purely throttle related?
[...]

This. The ECU will "mix" available torque from the ERS and ICE depending upon the driver's torque demand (throttle position). "Low end" power is likely to be dominated by ERS. The percentage of power derived by the ICE will increase as the engine enters its optimum RPM range for power and efficiency.

[WhiteBlue]

Can someone explain this to me: 160bhp from the ers unit will be released with a push of a button like KERS currently or by some other method?

All ERS boost will be demanded from the throttle pedal, the electronics will work out what mix of petrol and stored energy will be used. There will be no steering wheel KERS boost button.

This is what was dubbed "full dual torque mode" before in this thread. It works very similar to the dual torque control of the rear wheels when they are harvesting KERS with the current KERS system. The SECU will look at the power level in the energy storage system and adjust a map for splitting this dual torque accordingly. It will not be looking at real time data like GPS from the track location. That would be deemed a kind of traction control. So the teams have to work out their dual torque maps for the torque control based on throttle pedal input and the state of the energy storage system. There will also be an input from the operating mode I assume. If you run in safety car mode or in full electric mode - required from 2016 in the pit lane - you obviously need to set a completely different torque splitting balance.

The pictures also settle another debate which we had for quite some time. I do not see any waste gate in the Renault turbo design. So I'm now assuming that they will completely control the excess power from the electronic control of the turbine. The SECU will permanently be looking at balancing the load of the turbine to a demand profile. That means there will be positive and negative additional load on the MGU-H depending of the turbine and engine rpms.

[WhiteBlue]

Thanks.But it is not seem MGU-H energy come from heat.

Correct
the turbine is driven by exhaust gas pressure, which is strongly related to velocity, but weakly related to temperature
unfortunately most of the pressure at the opening of the exhaust valve is dissipated, so is unavailable to the turbine
the turbine will be using the natural pressure pulses in the exhaust
it will recover in this way a useful amount of free power with little reduction in power from the pistons

most exhaust heat cannot ever be accessed by a tubine in the exhaust gas
that's why BMW have developed their TurboSteamer, using exhaust and coolant heat to make steam (ie at pressure)
to turn a steam turbine connected to the crankshaft
adding about 15% to the engine power for the same fuel consumption

That explanation is not very good either. Pressure and heat are connected in the working cycle of a heat engine. The temperature automatically changes with the pressure. If you compare the turbo engine with a NA engine you find that the available pressure behind the exhaust valves is not utilized. It is exhausted to the environment without generating work and that results in a hotter exhaust temperature. The turbo engine takes that available work and extracts it by building up a back pressure between the valves and the turbine. Thus the turbine extracts work from the exhaust stream and lowers the temperature of the gas that actually exits the tail pipe. One has to consider that the the back pressure from the turbine also increases the heat that gets introduced into the exhaust manifold pipes. The hot gas is held back and cannot freely dissipate the heat energy by expanding. This is the reason why the exhaust pipes look so much hotter when you use a turbo although the exhaust gases at the tail pipe are colder.

[WhiteBlue]

On page 4 and 5 of this PDF file, you can read that the fuel quantity per race is limited to 100kg. The 2014 Technical Regulations do not contain this limit, only the 100kg/h flow rate is mentioned.

There are talks of a maximum quantity of 100kg for a while now. I think the sporting regulations published at the moment will change until the beginning of 2014.

There are no 2014 sporting regulation published at the time being, but the teams and engine manufacturers obviously have advanced information what is planned. I have said it several times in this thread that we should trust Renault to know such details and accept them as a reliable source of the coming regulations in that regard.

[PlatinumZealot]

Intercooler ducts in the wrong direction?



http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... 2013-2.jpg

[xpensive]

Oh mama, that's one serious intercooler, stupid me predicted they could do without it...while ringo said it was a "no brainer".

But there you go.

[WhiteBlue]

Oh mama, that's one serious intercooler, stupid me predicted they could do without it...while ringo said it was a "no brainer".
But there you go.

He is probably understanding the thermodynamics of the turbo engine better than anybody else who posts in this thread. At least he has a computational model which gives him some meaningful numbers that we all have no alternative to use.

It looks to me that the position of the MGU-H above the left bank of the engine forces them to design an asymmetrical inter cooler. The engine and ERS cooling systems will probably all go into the other side pot. I'm wondering if this layout will be mirrored by the other teams.

[xpensive]

Perhaps so WB, but this is something else, haven't seen that size of an intercooler since the six bar days, good lord.

Given that the image is realistic of course, which I somehow doubt, but just a bit this time...

[Ferraripilot]

Can someone explain this to me: 160bhp from the ers unit will be released with a push of a button like KERS currently or by some other method?

All ERS boost will be demanded from the throttle pedal, the electronics will work out what mix of petrol and stored energy will be used. There will be no steering wheel KERS boost button.

This means their fuel and ignition map will now be 4 dimensional because it would be wise to incorporate the ERS boost map into existing maps as well. Perameters for tire wear and aero loads with the new powertrains will probably be deduced in the map as well. For X slippage at Y speed with Z downforce or suspension movement, we can incorporate XXX amount of ERS in the map according to YYY gear.

I suspect no small amount of map tweaks will be out there. This will be fun.

Lastly, could ERS then classify itself as a moveable aero device or traction control if its torque output is varied? I have been wonderfing this for months now. Or will the Fia ultimately regulate it so ERS can only be 'on' or 'off'.

[WhiteBlue]

This means their fuel and ignition map will now be 4 dimensional because it would be wise to incorporate the ERS boost map into existing maps as well. Perameters for tire wear and aero loads with the new powertrains will probably be deduced in the map as well. For X slippage at Y speed with Z downforce or suspension movement, we can incorporate XXX amount of ERS in the map according to YYY gear.

I suspect no small amount of map tweaks will be out there. This will be fun.

Lastly, could ERS then classify itself as a moveable aero device or traction control if its torque output is varied? I have been wonderfing this for months now. Or will the Fia ultimately regulate it so ERS can only be 'on' or 'off'.

I would rather think that a cascading control strategy will be employed for various aspects of the power train. I have already remarked on the control of the turbo via the MGU-H before.

The dual torque mapping of the ERS will be a job in its own right. The ignition and injection mapping will be fairly complex. I agree with that conclusion. It will probably depend of the actual speed of the vehicle and the speed of the engine.

[Tommy Cookers]

Thanks.But it is not seem MGU-H energy come from heat.

Correct
the turbine is driven by exhaust gas pressure, which is strongly related to velocity, but weakly related to temperature
unfortunately most of the pressure at the opening of the exhaust valve is dissipated, so is unavailable to the turbine
the turbine will be using the natural pressure pulses in the exhaust
it will recover in this way a useful amount of free power with little reduction in power from the pistons

most exhaust heat cannot ever be accessed by a tubine in the exhaust gas
that's why BMW have developed their TurboSteamer, using exhaust and coolant heat to make steam (ie at pressure)
to turn a steam turbine connected to the crankshaft
adding about 15% to the engine power for the same fuel consumption

Pressure and heat are connected in the working cycle of a heat engine. The temperature automatically changes with the pressure. If you compare the turbo engine with a NA engine you find that the available pressure behind the exhaust valves is not utilized. It is exhausted to the environment without generating work and that results in a hotter exhaust temperature. The turbo engine takes that available work and extracts it by building up a back pressure between the valves and the turbine.

there are many ways in which pressure and heat are connected in a heat engine
they are all less than ideal, some very far from ideal (particularly so in discontinuous processes ie piston engines)
blowdown takes place at 7 bar or more in such engines (and wastes much of the pressure in all such engines including turbos)
because the flow is supersonic

as many of its friends tell me, the turbo engine does not build up a (significant) back pressure between the valves and the turbine
any back pressure acts against the upward exhaust stroke of the piston (the exhaust valve is open all this time)
so must be avoided (ie by not overloading the exhaust with a heavily-loaded turbine)
Wright explain and show this as crucial, in the Turbo-Compound literature
this is of course why blowdown starts so early ie at 7 bar (earlier than that when there is a turbine in the exhaust)
in our sort of turbo or TC engine the turbine at best uses essentially the transient pressure pulse (which is good of course)

if we have a 'Hyperbar' engine turbocharged to about 15 bar induction pressure, the above does not apply
an ideal DI system (controlling combustion speed by injecting throughout combustion) might move the SI engine in that direction

BMW have not done their Turbosteamer work without good reason
they and others eg GM have made worthwhile progress with electrical generation from exhaust heat (Peltier effect)
a turbine would appear by your account (in part) to undermine these above (by reducing the exhaust energy available to them)

[Blackout]

It looks to me that the position of the MGU-H above the left bank of the engine forces them to design an asymmetrical inter cooler.

I dont understand this part. How do oyu know the MGUH is positionned on the left and not right in the centre ? Do you mean the MGUK ? in that case it is placed under the left bank and not above... and what do you mean with asymmetrical ?

[Ferraripilot]

Lastly, could ERS then classify itself as a moveable aero device or traction control if its torque output is varied? I have been wonderfing this for months now. Or will the Fia ultimately regulate it so ERS can only be 'on' or 'off'.

I would rather think that a cascading control strategy will be employed for various aspects of the power train. I have already remarked on the control of the turbo via the MGU-H before.

The dual torque mapping of the ERS will be a job in its own right. The ignition and injection mapping will be fairly complex. I agree with that conclusion. It will probably depend of the actual speed of the vehicle and the speed of the engine.[/quote]


Just read that earlier in the thread, excellent.

I cannot see why they would map ERS torque alternatively to engine torque, I'm unsure of this so please let us know that theory. They should be able to plot their rough traction and aero capabilities in a theorhetical manner though thus providing a rough idea of torque mapping.

I suspect these new engines may be better with managing tires under tire slippage/wheelspin conditions as it sounds like torque will be far more controllable. But will that be considered traction control????