2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[WhiteBlue]

Correct
the turbine is driven by exhaust gas pressure, which is strongly related to velocity, but weakly related to temperature
unfortunately most of the pressure at the opening of the exhaust valve is dissipated, so is unavailable to the turbine
the turbine will be using the natural pressure pulses in the exhaust
it will recover in this way a useful amount of free power with little reduction in power from the pistons

most exhaust heat cannot ever be accessed by a tubine in the exhaust gas
that's why BMW have developed their TurboSteamer, using exhaust and coolant heat to make steam (ie at pressure)
to turn a steam turbine connected to the crankshaft
adding about 15% to the engine power for the same fuel consumption

Pressure and heat are connected in the working cycle of a heat engine. The temperature automatically changes with the pressure. If you compare the turbo engine with a NA engine you find that the available pressure behind the exhaust valves is not utilized. It is exhausted to the environment without generating work and that results in a hotter exhaust temperature. The turbo engine takes that available work and extracts it by building up a back pressure between the valves and the turbine.

there are many ways in which pressure and heat are connected in a heat engine
they are all less than ideal, some very far from ideal
blowdown takes place at 7 bar or more in all engines (and wastes most of the pressure in all engines including turbos)
because the flow is supersonic

as many of its friends tell me, the turbo engine does not build up a (significant) back pressure between the valves and the turbine
any back pressure acts against the upward exhaust stroke of the piston (the exhaust valve is open all this time)
so must be avoided (ie by not overloading the exhaust with a heavily-loaded turbine)
Wright explain and show this as crucial, in the Turbo-Compound literature
this is of course why blowdown starts so early ie at 7 bar (earlier than that when there is a turbine in the exhaust)
in our sort of turbo or TC engine the turbine at best uses essentially the transient pressure pulse (which is good of course)

if we have a 'Hyperbar' engine turbocharged to about 15 bar induction pressure, the above does not apply
an ideal DI system (controlling combustion speed by injecting throughout combustion) might move the SI engine in that direction

Your post sounds very convoluted and is difficult to understand. IMO you do not address the crucial issue here. The important fact is that the turbo extracts more work from the exhaust gas than the NA engine does and therefore lowers the exhaust gas energy status (enthalpy). That additional work is added to the total power the engine ultimately delivers to the wheels. It follows that any well designed turbo engine has an efficiency advantage over a NA engine with the same power output. And that means it will use less fuel which is the prime objective of F1 and LMP1 rules for 2014. All of this has not much to do with direct injection. The DI simply supports the trend towards turbo engines because it works better at lower revs. And lower revs are easier achieved with turbo charging.

[WhiteBlue]

It looks to me that the position of the MGU-H above the left bank of the engine forces them to design an asymmetrical inter cooler.

I dont understand this part. How do oyu know the MGUH is positionned on the left and not right in the centre ? Do you mean the MGUK ? in that case it is placed under the left bank and not above... and what do you mean with asymmetrical ?

You need to look at the picture in which they explain the different components in the system. It shows the position of the MGU-H.

[WhiteBlue]

Lastly, could ERS then classify itself as a moveable aero device or traction control if its torque output is varied? I have been wondering this for months now. Or will the Fia ultimately regulate it so ERS can only be 'on' or 'off'.

I would rather think that a cascading control strategy will be employed for various aspects of the power train. I have already remarked on the control of the turbo via the MGU-H before.

The dual torque mapping of the ERS will be a job in its own right. The ignition and injection mapping will be fairly complex. I agree with that conclusion. It will probably depend of the actual speed of the vehicle and the speed of the engine.

Just read that earlier in the thread, excellent.

I cannot see why they would map ERS torque alternatively to engine torque, I'm unsure of this so please let us know that theory. They should be able to plot their rough traction and aero capabilities in a theorhetical manner though thus providing a rough idea of torque mapping.

I suspect these new engines may be better with managing tires under tire slippage/wheelspin conditions as it sounds like torque will be far more controllable. But will that be considered traction control????

I'm not sure how it all will be cascaded in the end. The only thing that seems to be clear is that there will be multi dimensional maps in addition to multi level cascades. One should consider that point in the discussion.

[Tommy Cookers]

@WhiteBlue

you do not seem to understand or believe that in an SI engine the compression ratio must be decreased (for equal fuel quality, charge temperature etc) when the induction pressure is increased eg with supercharging/turbocharging of any kind
one of us seems mistaken in this fundamentally important matter

the necessary decrease in CR and consequent loss of (in-cylinder) thermal efficiency is of course reduced with DI
the enhanced piezoelectric 'super DI' for 2014 is crucial for this reason
as is the apparent recent waiving of the Octane number limit

these changes are particularly beneficial to the 2014 type of engine
that's why they are doing them

[WhiteBlue]

@WhiteBlue
you do not seem to understand or believe that in an SI engine the compression ratio must decrease as the induction pressure increases (with equal fuel quality, charge temperature etc)
eg with supercharging/turbocharging of any kind

the necessary decrease in CR and consequent loss of (in-cylinder) thermal efficiency is of course reduced with DI
the enhanced piezoelectric 'super DI' for 2014 is crucial for this reason
as is the apparent recent waiving of the Octane number limit

I'm well aware that direct injection particularly with air guided combustion has an influence. It allows compression before injection which is certainly the most efficient combustion and injection method. Compression is not so much lower with the best combustion method. You do not seem to be aware that direct injection with those high compression ratios is available and requires low engine rev levels which in turn favours the use of a turbo. Turbo racing engines are using comparatively lower revs. Don't you agree with that view?

[Tommy Cookers]

.... direct injection particularly with air guided combustion has an influence. It allows compression before injection which is certainly the most efficient combustion and injection method. Compression is not so much lower with the best combustion method.
...... Don't you agree with that view?

you seem to be asking me if I agree with things that I had already said

since you seem to want me to play the NA diehard (that was someone else, remember !) ......
an NA engine in a fuel-efficiency competition could use a higher CR than the turbo if allowed the same DI, fuel and charge temp
2013 F1 engines I believe have 'only' about 14:1 CR because of the huge valves and extreme B:S ratio make the chamber so shallow
IIRC M Simon said the 2014s would limit valve size for better CR

[Hail22]

I understand this unit was in a completely different era as well as the gearbox however could we expect the 2014 units to sound similar to this clip below?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBJOaB6FLNU[/youtube]

I don't know about you...but a part of me wishes manual gearboxes returned

[WhiteBlue]

The new turbos will probably have a bit higher frequency because they feed all six cylinders into one exhaust.

[WhiteBlue]

an NA engine in a fuel-efficiency competition could use a higher CR than the turbo if allowed the same DI, fuel and charge temp
2013 F1 engines I believe have 'only' about 14:1 CR because of the huge valves and extreme B:S ratio make the chamber so shallow
IIRC M Simon said the 2014s would limit valve size for better CR

The question is whether that would make a significant difference to the efficiency advantage the turbo engine derives from the additional work it extracts from the exhaust gas. My opinion on this is clear. It won't. So why do we have to have those explanations? It is not really relevant for the understanding of the 2014 power train AFAIK. The smaller six cylinder engine will have a lesser valve cross section than the old V8s had but how does it matter? The engine has forced induction which changes the game fundamentally. A bit of the additional work that gets extracted from the exhaust gets used to overcome pumping losses but on the bottom line you still get more power per fuel, which is all that matters.

[wuzak]

Oh mama, that's one serious intercooler, stupid me predicted they could do without it...while ringo said it was a "no brainer".
But there you go.

It looks to me that the position of the MGU-H above the left bank of the engine forces them to design an asymmetrical inter cooler. The engine and ERS cooling systems will probably all go into the other side pot. I'm wondering if this layout will be mirrored by the other teams.

The single intercooler to one side is required by the single outlet compressor, the outlet being pointed to one side.

The MGU-H is in the vee - mounted as low as possible (and in line with the turbo).

[wuzak]

Intercooler ducts in the wrong direction?

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... 2013-2.jpg

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... 2013-2.jpg

No, don't think so.

Why do you think that?

[WhiteBlue]

The MGU-H is in the vee - mounted as low as possible (and in line with the turbo).

That is not correct AFAIK. The MGU-H is clearly mounted on the upper left side of the engine above the valve cover and vertically between the inlet and the outlet of the inter-cooler. Compare the above picture mosaic in the left hand upper corner.

You can see the mechanical connectors very clearly in some of the pictures - like the above - and you see the actual MGU-H in the four picture mosaic that detail all parts of the drive train one pic further up. The MGU-K is also on the left side but mounted lower down under the cylinder bank.

[Hail22]

Those exhaust headers are going to be under a lot of strain, also its going to be interesting which team gets on top of engineering their turbos to reduce lag (lets face it...there will always be lag in a turbo powered engine).

[wuzak]

That is not correct AFAIK. The MGU-H is clearly mounted on the upper left side of the engine above the valve cover and vertically between the inlet and the outlet of the inter-cooler. Compare the above picture mosaic in the left hand upper corner.

You do realise that the picture to which you refer is looking down on the engine from above, not looking across from the left side?

[wuzak]

Some interesting info from the press pack:

Code: Select all

ENGINE                                               RS27-2013                          ENERGY F1-2014
Displacement                                         2.4l                               1.6l
Rev limit                                            18,000rpm                          15,000rpm
Pressure charging                                    Normally aspirated, pressure       Single turbocharger, unlimited boost pressure 
                                                     charging is forbidden              (typical maximum 3.5 bar abs due to fuel flow limit)
Fuel flow limit                                      Unlimited, but typically 170 kg/h  100 kg/h (-40%)
Permitted Fuel quantity per race                     Unlimited, but typically 160 kg    100 kg (-35%)
Configuration                                        90° V8                             90° V6
Number of cylinders                                  8                                  6
Bore                                                 Max 98mm                           80mm
Stroke                                               Not regulated                      53mm
Crank height                                         Min 58mm                           90mm
Number of valves                                     4 per cylinder, 32                 4 per cylinder, 24
Exhausts                                             Twin exhaust outlets,              Single exhaust outlet,
                                                     one per bank of cylinders          from turbine on car centre line
Fuel                                                 Indirect fuel injection            Direct fuel injection
Number of Power Units permitted per driver per year  8                                  5

ENERGY RECOVERY SYSTEMS
MGU-K rpm                                            Unlimited (38,000rpm)              Max 50,000rpm
MGU-K power                                          Max 60kW                           Max 120kW
Energy recovered by MGU-K                            Max 0.4 MJ/lap                     Max 2MJ/lap
Energy released by MGU-K                             Max 0.4 MJ/lap                     Max 4 MJ/lap
MGU-H rpm                                            -                                  >100,000rpm
Energy recovered by MGU-H                            -                                  Unlimited (> 2MJ/lap)

Renault, at least, are predicting greater than 2MJ per lap to be harvested by the MGU-H.