2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[WhiteBlue]

You do realise that the picture to which you refer is looking down on the engine from above, not looking across from the left side?

If I look at the central picture in the mosaic I realize that you are probably right. If I remember right the MGU-H has to be mounted very close to or even on the centre line. What I took for mounting points of the MGU are probably something else.

[wuzak]

You do realise that the picture to which you refer is looking down on the engine from above, not looking across from the left side?

If I look at the central picture in the mosaic I realize that you are probably right. If I remember right the MGU-H has to be mounted very close to or even on the centre line. What I took for mounting points of the MGU are probably something else.

The rear view of the turbocharger shows the position of the MGU-H.

In theory the MGU-H could be offset from the turbocharger, using a gearbox to achieve the offset.

[WhiteBlue]

I do not know which rear view you mean, but I agree with your general evaluation. To me it appears all but the central shot in the mosaic show the MGU-H somewhat shrouded or obscured by other parts of the air intake system.

[wuzak]

I do not know which rear view you mean, but I agree with your general evaluation. To me it appears all but the central shot in the mosaic show the MGU-H somewhat shrouded or obscured by other parts of the air intake system.

I mean this one

[wuzak]

WB, what do you make of Renault's claim of 2MJ+ per lap harvesting from the MGU-H?

On a 90s lap that is around 22kW = 29.5hp on average.

What would it mean for peak harvesting power?

[WhiteBlue]

I think that is a low figure if we recall ringo's thermodynamic calculation of the excess work that can be extracted. There is basically no legal limit to what you can harvest and immediately send to the MGU-K. Typically as much as 75% of the lap is open throttle which means they use 40 hp for peak. That could be a bit deflated. You would also have to consider that some harvested heat energy is needed to charge the energy storage system for turbo spool up. If you consider that, the maximum in Monza could be as high as 50 hp. It still sounds like a low figure to me.

[wuzak]

I think that is a low figure if we recall ringo's thermodynamic calculation of the excess work that can be extracted. There is basically no legal limit to what you can harvest and immediately send to the MGU-K. Typically as much as 75% of the lap is open throttle which means they use 40 hp for peak. That could be a bit deflated. You would also have to consider that some harvested heat energy is needed to charge the energy storage system for turbo spool up. If you consider that, the maximum in Monza could be as high as 50 hp. It still sounds like a low figure to me.

Whatever they can get now, I'm sure it is going to be one of the big develoment focuses. As you say, there is no limit to how much energy the MGU-H can deliver, except the limit of teh MGU-K motor which it feeds (ie 180hp).

[jamsbong]

Very fascinating to see the new Renault engines images.
The huge sized intercooler really stands out! I still wonder why not have intercoolers on both side?

The farting engine noise is less interesting though.

With only 5 engine err... power unit allocation available, that means they have to be built tough.

Still, I am keen to see how different manufacturers find a cutting edge out of the new power unit. I think the engine is smarter than ever especially in terms of the ability to convert energy into useful power.

[Tommy Cookers]

Whatever they can get now, I'm sure it is going to be one of the big develoment focuses. As you say, there is no limit to how much energy the MGU-H can deliver, except the limit of teh MGU-K motor which it feeds (ie 180hp).

the practical limit would normally be the point at which further gains in turbine power are outweighed
by the loss in crankshaft power which further turbine gains will cause in various ways
but the fuel rate rules clearly allow 'free' fuel ie disproportionate fuel burning when little or no crankshaft power is needed
so there might be a perverse departure from the above normality
that is fuel burning to generate electricity that is not recovered from waste exhaust energy ie fake recovery
the dual torque output concept does not prevent this

when the driver wants maximum engine power (including genuine exhaust recovery) it is limited by fuel rate
but at other times the fuel rate allows engine running just to produce electricity for storage
so there is one rule for the ICE, and another for the electric side
only strongly limiting fuel quantity will discourage fake recovery, either from exhaust or under braking
but this will undermine the power of the fuel rate limiting concept to give racing unspoilt by economy driving
you can't have it both ways

[WhiteBlue]

Well, the facts are known. Mass flow of fuel will be capped at 100 kg/h = 27.8 g/s. Race fuel allocation will be limited to a total of 100 kg. If you look at a total GP time of 90 minutes there seems to be very little chance to waste fuel. The typical race will have 75% of the time full throttle. Where do you think they will find the fuel to wastefully burn fuel to generate electricity. The notion is simply an ivory tower concept to me. But I do not want to dismiss it out of hand. Please provide some figures which would substantiate your concerns.

[wuzak]

I'm sure that the rul makers will push the fuel allowances lower, so that we have the situation much as we have now - periods of races where drivers conserve their fuel.

[WhiteBlue]

I'm sure that the rul makers will push the fuel allowances lower, so that we have the situation much as we have now - periods of races where drivers conserve their fuel.

That is not the concern of TC. He thinks that the 2014 formula will continue to burn excess fuel when the revs come down in the corners by wasteful engine maps that will spool up the turbo to generate electricity.

[wuzak]

I'm sure that the rul makers will push the fuel allowances lower, so that we have the situation much as we have now - periods of races where drivers conserve their fuel.

That is not the concern of TC. He thinks that the 2014 formula will continue to burn excess fuel when the revs come down in the corners by wasteful engine maps that will spool up the turbo to generate electricity.

Not sure that is going to happen. Mainly because there is a weight penalty to do that.

[Tommy Cookers]

I'm sure that the rul makers will push the fuel allowances lower, so that we have the situation much as we have now - periods of races where drivers conserve their fuel.

That is not the concern of TC. He thinks that the 2014 formula will continue to burn excess fuel when the revs come down in the corners by wasteful engine maps that will spool up the turbo to generate electricity.

Not sure that is going to happen. Mainly because there is a weight penalty to do that.

the potential for weight penalty is much smaller than currently, as the fuel weight is much less
and given that the defenders of the 2014 rules believe they will anyway cause all the fuel to be used (efficiently)
it seems unlikely that any of the 100kg will be left in the pit

there will be many ways of using fuel, some less efficient than others
but I don't think it's black and white
accessing the disproportionate fuel rate at low driver torque demand is not necessarily inefficient
but is 'unfair' to the ICE and (fraudulently) presents fuel-generated electricity as recovered waste (as does KERS currently)
I think the cars will be set up to access this rate, and so be capable of using over 100 kg of fuel
and the drivers will consequently at some times be doing economy driving to manage consumption to 99.9 kg
because this will give a better race result

the lower the fuel quantity limit, the worse this aspect would get
all new F1 rules have started with some nobility of purpose and hope in their foundation
including the 1958 rules that started the F1 standardisation on 'road quality' fuel, now discreetly abandoned ?

[WhiteBlue]

If this becomes a problem it can be easily fixed by tweaking the allowed fuel capacity for the race, but I still believe the proportion of race fuel allocation and fuel flow are specified ok to prevent abuse of that kind.

With regard to the question of performance gains from economy mapping and burning that fuel for electricity I believe that it will not give superior performance. The ICE is simply producing more power from the fuel than the turbo/MGU-H. It would not be clever to swap high power for lower power.