Mercedes AMG F1 W04

[SectorOne]

Brakes is his strong point, as he says himself, he´s the latest of the latebrakers.
Locking the inside wheel you could say is one of his key traits even.

[OppositeLock]

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2013/0/1078.html

[Taqtix27]

awesome video. wish there was a way to save it.

[dans79]

awesome video. wish there was a way to save it.

this is the video source.
http://www.formula1.com/assets/video/ne ... CO-WIN.flv

[Richard]

Much as I admire how people's love for Hamilton's superhero braking talent and how it is an order better/worse than Alonso/Rosberg please don't forget this is the car thread!

Off topic posts have been be removed.

[ringo]

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2013/0/1078.html

So monkey seat is an official name now?

Yes, about the brakes, it may be the master cylinders that's the issue. This is probably the tricky part. It's like Kimi's steering, he's only going to give feed back after you spend time and resources to make a new one. So if you imaging a lot of back and forth to get it just right, you can understand that it is a legitimate issue that's hard to solve.
I feel he's better off requesting Mclaren send over the designs, or pay off one of technicians to swipe a mater cylinder off the assembly line.

[Chuckjr]

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2013/0/1078.html

So monkey seat is an official name now?

Yes, about the brakes, it may be the master cylinders that's the issue. This is probably the tricky part. It's like Kimi's steering, he's only going to give feed back after you spend time and resources to make a new one. So if you imaging a lot of back and forth to get it just right, you can understand that it is a legitimate issue that's hard to solve.
I feel he's better off requesting Mclaren send over the designs, or pay off one of technicians to swipe a mater cylinder off the assembly line.

Ringo (or anyone who knows what they are talking about and are not just guessing like I do), I'm curious why the master cylinder as opposed to the pads, or the discs, hydraulics, or the fluid/lines, etc would be more of a culprit than these and other parts of the braking system? Why do you call it, "the tricky part"? What differentiates it from other portions of the system? I'd really like to better understand the problem. Thanks very much.

[WillerZ]

Yes, about the brakes, it may be the master cylinders that's the issue. This is probably the tricky part. It's like Kimi's steering, he's only going to give feed back after you spend time and resources to make a new one. So if you imaging a lot of back and forth to get it just right, you can understand that it is a legitimate issue that's hard to solve.
I feel he's better off requesting Mclaren send over the designs, or pay off one of technicians to swipe a mater cylinder off the assembly line.

Ringo (or anyone who knows what they are talking about and are not just guessing like I do), I'm curious why the master cylinder as opposed to the pads, or the discs, hydraulics, or the fluid/lines, etc would be more of a culprit than these and other parts of the braking system? Why do you call it, "the tricky part"? What differentiates it from other portions of the system?

Almost all the other parts are supplied by outside suppliers off-the-shelf; if they were the problem it would be solved immediately and relatively very cheaply by ringing the suppliers whose stuff he had at McLaren and having them send it over.

There are three things you worry about with braking:
• Ultimate performance – if this was the problem you'd probably fix it by changing the pads/discs
• Fade – if this was the problem you'd fix it by changing the fluid and/or lines and/or improving the cooling
• Control – this is the problem you'd fix by changing the master cylinder

Assuming they have enough performance to lock the wheels (I think this is a safe assumption) and they don't have a fade problem (don't recall hearing it on team radio in any session and I watched them all so far) then Lewis does not have the controls working quite how he wants.

As the brake pedal is depressed it pushes a piston which reduces the volume of the master cylinder, forcing brake fluid into the pistons and moving the brake pads closer to each other. At a crude level you can get more control by making the master cylinder cross-section smaller, so that the same movement of that piston moves the pads less distance (and you have to push really hard to lock the wheels); or you can get 'sharper' braking where a toddler can lock it up by making it larger. You can also get those same effects by changing the gearing which translates the pedal movement into the master piston movement. These are probably not all that difficult to change.

However there are extra complexities in the real world because objects like pistons and brake pedals are not perfectly stiff. The response, while theoretically linear, will be transiently non-linear. Changing one component for another which is nominally identical but actually either stiffer or less-stiff will change the behaviour of the system as a whole, particularly when operated close to its limits.

Of course I have only my minimal experience with hydraulics (mountain bikes, years ago), and nil motorsport-hydraulics experience.

[Chuckjr]

Outstanding. Thank you for your time.

[Tim.Wright]

Another critical aspect of the brakes (which could be categorised under "control") is referred to by the drivers as the initial bite. I'm not so well versed in the brake system dynamics, but I guess this is the transient characteristics of the braking force build-up. This would largely be dominated by thermal and mechanical effects at the brakes. If I recall correct, the carbon brakes have a delay to the braking force response because they need to rise to temperature first. Disc material, cooling and pad compound are the largest variables at play here.

Then on top of that you have elasticities in the complete system such as hydraulic volume loss from hoses expanding, deflection of the calipers and uprights and then of the suspension and tyre.

Also, the suspension setup will affect the transient response of the tyres. The McLaren seems to have a very different front axle design in terms of the anti dive as compared to the Mercedes and this changes the vertical force on the front tyres massively in the first few tenths of a second.

Finally, in terms of tactile feedback to the driver, the pitch of the chassis would also affect things. If the chassis of the Mercedes responds differently under brakes to the McLaren (likely due to the different anti dive setups) then this could be further affecting the driver's confidence under brakes.

[Chuckjr]

Another critical aspect of the brakes (which could be categorised under "control") is referred to by the drivers as the initial bite. I'm not so well versed in the brake system dynamics, but I guess this is the transient characteristics of the braking force build-up. This would largely be dominated by thermal and mechanical effects at the brakes. If I recall correct, the carbon brakes have a delay to the braking force response because they need to rise to temperature first. Disc material, cooling and pad compound are the largest variables at play here.

From what I have read here, the Merc has significant tire temp issues, and this, it would seem, would play directly into the initial bite lock up. Initial bite is what I have noticed to be most problematic both last year on the Macca and this year on the Merc. It does not seem to come on very often half way through hard braking, but right as the brakes are stomped - which would catastrophically handicap a late braking driver. Maybe the Merc FRIC system compromises front end compliancy (lessens it) and this does not bode well for a late braking pilot, and additionally points to proper alignment challenges due to the complexity of the FRIC (it's not getting resolved quickly). The Macca with its concrete front suspension seemed to cause similar issues last year.

Thank you for your insight. I very much enjoy learning from those who patiently take the time to teach this sport to others here - it makes the seemingly endless doldrums during these three week breaks a bit more tolerable. Cheers-

[liveforf1]

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2013/0/1078.html

So monkey seat is an official name now?

Yes, about the brakes, it may be the master cylinders that's the issue. This is probably the tricky part. It's like Kimi's steering, he's only going to give feed back after you spend time and resources to make a new one. So if you imaging a lot of back and forth to get it just right, you can understand that it is a legitimate issue that's hard to solve.
I feel he's better off requesting Mclaren send over the designs, or pay off one of technicians to swipe a mater cylinder off the assembly line.

i'm sure the addition of Paddy Lowe will do a lot to rectify or shed light onto what Lewis may not be able to properly communicate to the team.

[marcush.]

I don´t think you would be able to lock the front brakes by stomping on the pedal at high speed with lots of downforce forcing the tyre on the ground (and the car is not crashing down on the skid when applying the brakes).
But as you slow down the car it all gets tricky as the vertical force fades with diminishing aeroloads you need to feather -modulate the brakepedal to allow for the reduced grip capacity .
Add to this a steering movement or unloading of a tyre ,possibly through road surface or change of grippyness of the tarmac and a lockup may happen ..I´d think the smooth drivers need a predictable response of the car there .

[dans79]

It would't surprise me if they don't have a more complex linkage that allows for finer control under certain breaking conditions, that could also be complicating things.

I'm forgetting what the proper terminology is, but hear are some examples of one type of non linear movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdE-Ywb ... 7jtjH8HDeM

[khaliweed]

They (MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS) just posted this teaser:

http://youtu.be/DsbrwtGyXwM

anything new on that?