2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[WhiteBlue]

Where is the fuel/rpm ramp in the rules? That piece is pretty bullet proof.

5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.
5.1.5 Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5.

a flow rate exceding 100 kg/h must be exceeded intermittently
100 kg/h is eg 27.8 gm/sec, 27.8 mg'msec, and 27.8 microgram/microsec
if the engine must not ever in any microsecond use more than 27.8 microgram it cannot run
unless it has carburettors or continuous fuel injection

so there needs to be a hard definition of fuel rate
eg max 27.8 gm in any period of 1 second
or max 2.78 gm in any period of 100 msec
etc
and a hard definition of the place of this activity

the degree of fuel accumulation (as you call it) is maybe something the rule makers have already considered
after their lavish allowance of fuel to serve electrical accumulation when driver torque demand is not full

We already had this discussion. Due to the nature of the intermittent operation of the injection system variations in very small time units well under one second for instance in the millisecond order are not relevant for this regulation. People have to be a bit sensible and use common sense.

That aspect has nothing to do with the ability to monitor the flow rate in time frames that really matter. If you integrate the flow rate measured by an analogue system you can measure the flow rate to any desired degree of accuracy even if the injection is operated intermittently.

[timbo]

The regulation does not say that 100 kg may be consumed in an arbitrary way over one hour. It says that the flow rate resulting to 100 kg/h must not be exceeded. That is a completely different thing. The flow rate will be monitored by sensors that work on the analogue principle and work cumulatively. That means the flow rate cannot be manipulated without detection.

It is not a problem if the flow rate exceeding 100kg/h is detected. The question is the interpretation of the rules and FIA view on that.
I think it is of no coincidence that the flow is in kg/h and not in g/s.
For example, if the lap has 20% time off throttle and the fuel is not used at the time, by your interpretation it leaves a car with only 80kg/h of fuel to use.

[WhiteBlue]

For example, if the lap has 20% time off throttle and the fuel is not used at the time, by your interpretation it leaves a car with only 80kg/h of fuel to use.

I think that is exactly what the regulation say and want to achieve. Have a look at the total fuel allocation of 100 kg/race! It would not make sense otherweise.

[CHT]

sorry to interject, does anyone know if there will be an engine develop freeze in 2014 or are they free to continue develop the engine without resource restriction?

[Tommy Cookers]

That aspect has nothing to do with the ability to monitor the flow rate in time frames that really matter. If you integrate the flow rate measured by an analogue system you can measure the flow rate to any desired degree of accuracy even if the injection is operated intermittently.

that's what I was asking, your view on the time frame
and the measurement point(s)
ie the necessary rules

in my experience flow measurement under dynamic conditions is known to be difficult
it is usual to prove and calibrate such systems under representative conditions
your second sentence that I have quoted is salesman's talk, ie manufacturing accuracy by data processing

BTW officially speaking via the ISO etc there is (in UK English) no such thing as accuracy
officially the term is uncertainty
because the quantification of uncertainty is the closest humankind can get to certainty ('exactness')

[WhiteBlue]

sorry to interject, does anyone know if there will be an engine develop freeze in 2014 or are they free to continue develop the engine without resource restriction?

There will be a gradual freeze between 2015-2018. We have discussed it in this thread.

that's what I was asking, your view on the time frame
and the measurement point(s)
ie the necessary rules

in my experience flow measurement under dynamic conditions is known to be difficult
it is usual to prove and calibrate such systems under representative conditions
your second sentence that I have quoted is salesman's talk, ie manufacturing accuracy by data processing

BTW officially speaking via the ISO etc there is (in UK English) no such thing as accuracy
officially the term is uncertainty
because the quantification of uncertainty is the closest humankind can get to certainty ('exactness')

Excuse my lack of precision in the English language. I'm obviously not a native speaker. I hope I can get the idea across nevertheless.
The actual measurement - which is done in a computer controlled flow sensor - should be collected in a typical time frame and with the digital technology that is established by the MES telemetry system that they are already using this year. It has an updated bus system which should be faster than anything used so far (like CAN bus). That is typically something between 1-100 ms if memory serves me right. But it doesn't really matter because the underlying sensor technology is analogue and integrative. So the discrete nature of the digital telemetry system will not be an obstacle to the accuracy of the flow measurement. And the discrete working of the injection system will not be a problem either. The MES/FiA engineers can simply select a suitable sampling rate at which they interrogate the intelligent sensor that prepares an accurate measurement on its own. The measuring and data processing technology is available for fuel flow regulation that can not be manipulated or cheated by the teams. The SECU system is not in the hands of the teams and the FiA/MES have the means to protect the integrity.

[rjsa]

Arguing semantics here imho. Flow means speed. The rule says flow, not average flow over one,ten or one hundred seconds. Just flow.

That means instantaneous flow to the smallest interval measurable by the system in place.

[Owen.C93]

Arguing semantics here imho. Flow means speed. The rule says flow, not average flow over one,ten or one hundred seconds. Just flow.

That means instantaneous flow to the smallest interval measurable by the system in place.

Yeah, the pitlane speed limit is 100kph, but that doesn't mean they measure it over an hour.

[WhiteBlue]

Arguing semantics here imho. Flow means speed. The rule says flow, not average flow over one,ten or one hundred seconds. Just flow.

I agree with that interpretation.

That means instantaneous flow to the smallest interval measurable by the system in place.

Only that they will probably not measure at the smallest interval available to avoid the effect of the intermittent injection. It would make more sense to integrate over several pulses and take that value. One can calculate what such an interval would be. If the engine runs between 4.000 and 12.000 rpm - as the regulations stipulate - we would get 12.000 to 36.000 ignitions per minute, or a frequency of 200 to 600 per second. If we want to integrate over at least five events we would take a measurement 50 times per second which would give us an interval of 20 ms. That is a very simple task for the bus system and for the digital interface of the flow sensor.

[timbo]

Only that they will probably not measure at the smallest interval available to avoid the effect of the intermittent injection. It would make more sense to integrate over several pulses and take that value. One can calculate what such an interval would be. If the engine runs between 4.000 and 12.000 rpm - as the regulations stipulate - we would get 12.000 to 36.000 ignitions per minute, or a frequency of 200 to 600 per second. If we want to integrate over at least five events we would take a measurement 50 times per second which would give us an interval of 20 ms. That is a very simple task for the bus system and for the digital interface of the flow sensor.

And again, you're setting an arbitrary time interval. The regulations have no word on that. It's up to Charlie and TWG to discuss. So you can't dismiss any idea just yet.

[flynfrog]

It would be much simpler to go with a pure mechanical system. Set a fuel pressure blow off and an orifice size. Assuming that the fuels are all pretty close to the same.

[FW17]

Gill Sensors has developed a new Ultrasonic Fuel Flow Sensor, which has been designed specifically for use on a race car. The new sensor is lightweight, compact and robust, designed to withstand the extreme levels of vibration experienced in this type of installation.

The sensor uses Gill’s proven ultrasonic measurement technology to detect bi-directional fuel flow rate to 0.25% accuracy in real time, marking a major step forward from the impellor flow devices often used in racing applications.

This technology has a number of major advantages over impellor flow sensors, the most significant of which is the removal of mechanical parts from the flow path. This ensures minimal pressure drop across the sensor, providing true flow rate data with little impact on the flow itself. The removal of mechanical moving parts and bearings also eliminates mechanical dampening and allows much higher temporal resolution and accuracy for the capture and measurement of high frequency pulsating flows.

The detail provided within the flow data allows engineers to fully analyse fuel flow characteristics, with the sensor’s high level of sensitivity allowing even the pulses of fuel injectors to be identified at low RPM ranges.

The Ultrasonic Fuel Flow Sensor has been designed for use with all race fuels, including aggressive ethanol blends, and is capable of accurately recording flow rate from 0.5ml/min to 3000ml/min. With no moving parts to jam, break or wear out, the sensor provides extremely reliable operation even in the harshest of operating environments.

The sensor features a newly-developed electronic platform, which integrates the latest FPGA technology capable of measuring flow rate up to 4000 times a second. In addition to a digital output, a 0-5V analogue output is provided across the calibrated flow range.

As focus within top level Motorsport moves towards fuel efficiency, accurate monitoring of fuel usage is rapidly becoming an essential element of most telemetry systems. The Gill Fuel Flow Sensor has been designed specifically to address these requirements, providing governing bodies, race teams and engine developers alike with a means of accurately monitoring fuel flow and usage in real time.

[rjsa]

Refresh my memory please: Are the high pressure fuel system and/or injectors standard?

[xpensive]

...
And again, you're setting an arbitrary time interval. The regulations have no word on that. It's up to Charlie and TWG to discuss. So you can't dismiss any idea just yet.

You're trolling right? Either that or you've been incommunicado for the past year and are confused by the flow-unit, kg/h?

[WhiteBlue]

And again, you're setting an arbitrary time interval. The regulations have no word on that. It's up to Charlie and TWG to discuss. So you can't dismiss any idea just yet.

The TWG has no involvement in the design of the flow control system. That is the job of MES to do to the satisfaction of the FiA. The TWG has set the regulations. It is not their job to deliver the solution. I'm just pointing out how it would probably be done with the available technology without offering loop holes for cheaters.

Gill Sensors has developed a new Ultrasonic Fuel Flow Sensor, which has been designed specifically for use on a race car.

That is the thing that is most likely to be used IMO. We already discussed the technology some months before on this thread.

It would be much simpler to go with a pure mechanical system. Set a fuel pressure blow off and an orifice size. Assuming that the fuels are all pretty close to the same.

I do not agree. The Gill sensor seems to be the best solution I have seen so far.