2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[timbo]

Speaking of realistic, a 100 kRpm generator?

http://www.electrodynamics.net/document ... en2002.pdf

[xpensive]

Samarium cobalt permanent magnet rotor, but of course, just like in my son's brush-less motor in his RC-car.

But I can't figure what sort of frequency you get for ac-output with varying rpm, but I guess you rectify it anyway?

Thanks Timbo, this one's for keeps.

[timbo]

But I can't figure what sort of frequency you get for ac-output with varying rpm, but I guess you rectify it anyway?

Heh, I guess rectification and general electrical operation is quite tricky at that frequencies, that's for sure. Although some googling reveals that there are circuits for rectification even at 600kHz.

[Forza]

From the recent FIA interview

“We have new powertrain coming in 2014, with all sorts of energy recovery devices, which will I think bring the power up to a little over what we have at the moment,” he said.

“The cornerstone of this new power unit is that cars will only be able to use 100kg of fuel for a race,” he added. “There is also a fuel flow limit that will be checked and verified by the FIA fuel flow meter which will be fitted in all cars’ fuel tanks. Currently the fuel used is about 140 or 150kg and that will come down to the 100kg mark. That is a significant difference.

“Efficiency is the key thing,” he concluded.“You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race. It is a significant change to the efficiency of the car.”

[langwadt]

But I can't figure what sort of frequency you get for ac-output with varying rpm, but I guess you rectify it anyway?

Heh, I guess rectification and general electrical operation is quite tricky at that frequencies, that's for sure. Although some googling reveals that there are circuits for rectification even at 600kHz.

your standard switchmode power supply runs at 100's of kHz sometime MHz, so the frequency isn't really that high
lets say 8poles, 125K rpm, 2*8*125000/60 = 33.3KHz

[wuzak]

...
Renault have claimed in their press release that they can get 2MJ+ from the MGU-H per lap.
...

2 MJ per lap, that means an average 25 kW over an 80 second lap, is that realistic?

25 kW at 100 kRpm, that's only 2.4 Nm though. Interesting.

Speaking of realistic, a 100 kRpm generator?

Dont forget that they can gear the generator to the turbine.

[WhiteBlue]

Dont forget that they can gear the generator to the turbine.

The point here is they won't, at least not Renault and probably no other manufacturer.

[Saribro]

“You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race.”

This makes no sense at all.
If teams are only allowed to use 100kg, they aren't going to put in more, it's a complete waste.
If you've used the allowed 100kg before the end of the race, how is that "not running out of fuel"? Is Charlie just going to wave it off with: "Oh well, at least you tried, have your points/podium/win anyway."
This makes no sense at all.

[wuzak]

“You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race.”

This makes no sense at all.
If teams are only allowed to use 100kg, they aren't going to put in more, it's a complete waste.
If you've used the allowed 100kg before the end of the race, how is that "not running out of fuel"? Is Charlie just going to wave it off with: "Oh well, at least you tried, have your points/podium/win anyway."
This makes no sense at all.

I should imagine that they would have extra in the fuel pickup area. From what I recall, there was about 4-5l of fuel in the collector in the BAR when they had their disagreement (weight of the car without that fuel was lower than the minimum).

But if they carry more fuel, but are only allowed to use the 100kg I'm not sure how they check that.

Also, they currently start races without enough fuel to finish races. And sometimes stuff up the calculations (see Hamilton in Malaysia).

[WhiteBlue]

“You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race.”

This makes no sense at all.
If teams are only allowed to use 100kg, they aren't going to put in more, it's a complete waste.
If you've used the allowed 100kg before the end of the race, how is that "not running out of fuel"? Is Charlie just going to wave it off with: "Oh well, at least you tried, have your points/podium/win anyway."
This makes no sense at all.

The point is you cannot run out of fuel unless you do tricky and somewhat dumb things, like artificially burning fuel on slow sections of the track to make your MGU-H produce electricity for storage. The race fuel allocation is not meant to do such things and if you decide to go against the purpose of the race fuel allocation you are on your own. Under normal conditions the combination of race fuel allocation and fuel mass flow specification will take care that you will finish the race.

[xpensive]

“You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race.”

This makes no sense at all.
...

I agree, either CW was misquoted or he's not on top of the rules himself, the latter wouldn't xactly surprise me either as I very much doubt if the old spannerman wrote the technical regulations himself.

I believe it is a point of discussion however, you will have an average of 16.7 g/sec over a 100 minute race, or 60% of the race on full flow 27.8 g/sec, anyone knows what is realistic here?

[wuzak]

“You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race.”

This makes no sense at all.
...

I agree, either CW was misquoted or he's not on top of the rules himself, the latter wouldn't xactly surprise me either as I very much doubt if the old spannerman wrote the technical regulations himself.

I believe it is a point of discussion however, you will have an average of 16.7 g/sec over a 100 minute race, or 60% of the race on full flow 27.8 g/sec, anyone knows what is realistic here?

It will depend on tracks.

The races that take longer (like 1h 40 minutes) tend to be the slower average speed tracks, such as Monaco, where there is less full throttle usage.

Fast tracks, like Monza, for example, don't take as long. They can be over between 70 and 80 minutes. 70 minutes = 23.8g/s/85.7kg/h, 80 minutes = 20.8g/s/75kg/h.

So at Monza they will be able to do about 75% of the lap at full throttle and not run out of fuel. And 75% just happens to be about the full throttle percentage of the Monza Lap.

Monaco would be about, or under the 60% mark, so that should be OK too.

Also, would like to point out that cars are not filled to the fuel required to run flat out the whole race either. There are periods in the race when they lower the power and save fuel. This will still be an option in 2014, if running out of fuel was to be an issue.

[matt21]

“You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race.”

This makes no sense at all.
...

I agree, either CW was misquoted or he's not on top of the rules himself, the latter wouldn't xactly surprise me either as I very much doubt if the old spannerman wrote the technical regulations himself.

I believe it is a point of discussion however, you will have an average of 16.7 g/sec over a 100 minute race, or 60% of the race on full flow 27.8 g/sec, anyone knows what is realistic here?

The quote is correct:

http://www.fia.com/news/f1-power-ahead- ... ys-whiting

[Blanchimont]

The probability that a car will run out of fuel will be exactly the same as in 2013, very close to zero.

Right now teams calculate the amount of fuel the need before the race and then monitor the consumption right from the start to the finish line. When teams recognize that to much fuel was burned they tell the driver to reduce the engine settings.

The same procedure will be applied next year, so Whiting didn't say anything wrong!

[WhiteBlue]

Yeah, storm in a tea cup as usual.