2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[WhiteBlue]

... where does this difference between q and race come from?

A good question. I have been mulling over that discrepancy for some time. Obviously the issue here is not a simple increase in boost pressure as they could do it 25 years ago. You only get more power from the ICE if you find efficiency improvements. Those will typically not be of a nature that they cannot be exploited over a longer time. But one thing limits power that is not applicable in qualifying. There is no fuel allocation for qualifying which means that they can use fuel to generate more electricity. They can also load their energy storage up completely and use maximum electric power for one fast lap.
So peak power could be available for a longer duration of a qualifying lap than a race lap. It still does not explain why Pirelli expect 900 bhp. The other value that came from Pirelli is the torque. They expect up to 600 Nm compared to 350 today. That sounds like a lot of torque. If the MGU-K can have 200 Nm obviously 400 Nm can come from the ICE. Btw. I have not found the figure of 120 kW for the MGU-K in the regulations. It is only in the drawing and that means we may not have a legal limit of 120 kW. What if the MGU-K can be over loaded in qualifying? That is not at all technically inconceivable. As Wuzak tells us the data in 5.2.3 stipulate that you can get 1047 kW from the MGU-K. That is unrealistic but what happens if they can put between 120 and 200 kW through it?
The torque data from Pirelli are also interesting. If you take 200 Nm for the MGU-K away - assuming it has no gearing - you get 460 kW at 11000 rpm from the residual 400 Nm torque or 617 bhp.
All of this leads me to believe that Luca Marmorini from Ferrari is not very wrong in his assumption that ICE power will be around 600-650 bhp.

[wuzak]

Btw. I have not found the figure of 120 kW for the MGU-K in the regulations. It is only in the drawing and that means we may not have a legal limit of 120 kW. What if the MGU-K can be over loaded in qualifying? That is not at all technically inconceivable. As Wuzak tells us the data in 5.2.3 stipulate that you can get 1047 kW from the MGU-K. That is unrealistic but what happens if they can put 200 kW through it?

The diagram clearly shows a maximum power flow between the ICE and MGU-K of 120kW.

5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.
When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).
ES state of charge cannot increase whilst car is in the pit lane or garage during the qualifying session.
Measurements will be taken at the input to and the output from the ES.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.

[WhiteBlue]

The diagram clearly shows a maximum power flow between the ICE and MGU-K of 120kW.

I'm aware of the diagram. But why does it say the flow is into the engine? The MGU-K is supposed to drive the wheels.

5.2.3 The MGUK must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.

Is this the reason they speak of power to the engine? In that case you cannot over load the MGU-K as you say.

[Holm86]

Why does the MGU-K have to feed the crankshaft? Wouldn't it be more efficient if it was mounted to the differential etc.?
That would remove a lot of powertrain losses.

[WhiteBlue]

Why does the MGU-K have to feed the crankshaft? Wouldn't it be more efficient if it was mounted to the differential etc.?
That would remove a lot of powertrain losses.

Good question for the F1 commission. They set the regulations. I suspect it is all about interchangeability of engines. The team majority really wants to be as close to a spec engine as possible.

[Tim.Wright]

Could be either:

1. Draconian rules don't allow it

2. If its mounted to the differential, It will need to create massive torque which for an electric motor means a physically larger stator and rotor.

[wuzak]

Many of the teams build their own gearboxes. If the MGU-K was fitted to the diff it would probably mean that the engine suppliers would also have to supply the gearbox.

[Holm86]

Could be either:

1. Draconian rules don't allow it

2. If its mounted to the differential, It will need to create massive torque which for an electric motor means a physically larger stator and rotor.

I guess you're right about the torque. If the MGU-K was attached to the diff it would have to match the real wheel speed. Instead of just the engine speed. Which is the same in every gear.

Many of the teams build their own gearboxes. If the MGU-K was fitted to the diff it would probably mean that the engine suppliers would also have to supply the gearbox.

Thats true. But the MGU-K unit could just be something that you fit to the rear end of the gearbox. Just as you fit the engine unit to the front of the gearbox.

[xpensive]

... where does this difference between q and race come from?

A good question. I have been mulling over that discrepancy for some time. Obviously the issue here is not a simple increase in boost pressure as they could do it 25 years ago. You only get more power from the ICE if you find efficiency improvements.
...
All of this leads me to believe that Luca Marmorini from Ferrari is not very wrong in his assumption that ICE power will be around 600-650 bhp.

That is obviously what you will get if you xpect an efficiency of the ICE between 34 and 38%, but for the talk about 900 Hp in total with the MGU-K, qualifying or not, that's just banging the drum louder.

Moreover, releasing the maximum stored 2 MJ, or 2 MWs really, that's only good for 16.7 sec per lap anyway with 120 kW.

Speaking of which, these units, MJ and kg/h, has irritated me for a long time, I wonder who wrote those regulations, a lawyer?

An MGU-K to deliver 120 kW after the final drive would be huge, as torque will be at least 5 times more than at the engine?

[wuzak]

That is obviously what you will get if you xpect an efficiency of the ICE between 34 and 38%, but for the talk about 900 Hp in total with the MGU-K, qualifying or not, that's just banging the drum louder.

Drumming very loudly indeed.

900hp would be awesome. But if they got close to that I think the FIA would just wind back the fuel flow rate.

Moreover, releasing the maximum stored 2 MJ, or 2 MWs really, that's only good for 16.7 sec per lap anyway with 120 kW.

MW (MegaWatt) is a unit of power, MJ (MegaJoule) is a unit of energy. They are not interchangable, though they are related: 1 MW = 1 MJ per second.

Speaking of which, these units, MJ and kg/h, has irritated me for a long time, I wonder who wrote those regulations, a lawyer?

Someone versed in SI units.

Joule (J) is the standard unit for energy. Since they are going to be storing 2,000,000 J and (potentially) using 4,000,000 J per lap it is probably understandable that they chose to define the numbers in MegaJoules.

kg is the standard unit for mass. kg is chosen over litre or cubic metre because different fuels have different densities which vary with temperature. The energy content of fuel is constant per unit of mass, but varies with volume, so units of mass were chosen to regulate fuel allowed and fuel flow.

The standard unit of time is the second, but the flow rate in kg/s is rather small. Plus, it is easy to think about a peak flow rate of 100kg/h with 100kg maximum fuel usage and races 1.25-1.75 hours in length.

An MGU-K to deliver 120 kW after the final drive would be huge, as torque will be at least 5 times more than at the engine?

It could still be geared, but you would end up with an even wider range or rpm.

[xpensive]

...

Moreover, releasing the maximum stored 2 MJ, or 2 MWs really, that's only good for 16.7 sec per lap anyway with 120 kW.

MW (MegaWatt) is a unit of power, MJ (MegaJoule) is a unit of energy. They are not interchangable, though they are related: 1 MW = 1 MJ per second.

Speaking of which, these units, MJ and kg/h, has irritated me for a long time, I wonder who wrote those regulations, a lawyer?

Someone versed in SI units.

Joule (J) is the standard unit for energy. Since they are going to be storing 2,000,000 J and (potentially) using 4,000,000 J per lap it is probably understandable that they chose to define the numbers in MegaJoules.

kg is the standard unit for mass. kg is chosen over litre or cubic metre because different fuels have different densities which vary with temperature. The energy content of fuel is constant per unit of mass, but varies with volume, so units of mass were chosen to regulate fuel allowed and fuel flow.

The standard unit of time is the second, but the flow rate in kg/s is rather small. Plus, it is easy to think about a peak flow rate of 100kg/h with 100kg maximum fuel usage and races 1.25-1.75 hours in length.
...

If we read carefully, I wrote Ws as it is the typical unit used for energy in relation to electricity and motors and is equal to J,
while J is something you often find when dealing with heat. As for kg/h, I believe that gram per second would have been a far more appropriate unit, avoiding many misunderstandings as well.

SI-units or not, it's about being practical and understandable, a battery charge is rarely documented in Joule and kg/h as a unit for momentary flow does not make much sense. If you think about it, I'm certain you will agree with me.

[WhiteBlue]

.. these units, MJ and kg/h, has irritated me for a long time, I wonder who wrote those regulations, a lawyer?

Certainly not a lawyer. They are much too elegant for this. It is so incredibly easy to work with SI units, I can't understand how people could do without them for a long time. If you use kW for power and kJ for energy you just have to divide by seconds. If you use torque in Nm you can simply come to power in W or kW by multiplying with angular velocity. If you use cubic space in litres, cubic meters or cubic centimetres it is nothing but multi dimensional composites of meters with different multipliers to the power of ten. All these units are so simple and in the end they all are based on meters, grams and seconds. You only give specific names to the composed physical dimensions. It is a big advantage to measure chemical, electrical or kinetic energy in Joule. IMO it is idiotic to find different units for every different form of energy. You can never compare and visualize something properly. Same goes for power like electric power or mechanical power.

Actually I'm so much used to use Joule kJ, MJ, GJ and TJ that it annoys me immensely that most people in the electricity business use kWh. It makes no sense to me. Hours get you out of the metric system and create unnecessary complexity for calculations.

[xpensive]

The beauty with energy is that the units are interchangeable, J (Heat), Ws (Electrical) and Nm (Mechanical), is all the same.

But I find kg per hour for mass-flow just plain stupid, at least in this case.

[Blackout]

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/2014 ... 62936.html

The engine makers Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari are understandably holding their cards close to their chests, but Schmidt reports that Pirelli is expecting cars with full boost next year to be propelled in qualifying by up to 900 horse power.
And torque is set to increase dramatically, to 600 newton-metres.
Pirelli’s Paul Hembery said: "At the moment we don’t know exactly what to expect. "But the numbers we are hearing are enormous"

[Dragonfly]

The diagram clearly shows a maximum power flow between the ICE and MGU-K of 120kW.

I'm aware of the diagram. But why does it say the flow is into the engine? The MGU-K is supposed to drive the wheels.

Isn't this because initially the intention was to drive the cars on electric power only in the pit lane?