2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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rjsa wrote:
chris wrote:Care to elaborate why you believe this to be the case? Rather than making a woolly statement that allows wiggle room. Lets agree a clear premise/scenario to explore.
Know the concept of linearity?

In mathematics, a linear map or linear function f(x) is a function which satisfies the following two properties:
-Additivity (also called the superposition property): f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y).
-Homogeneity of degree 1: f(αx) = αf(x) for all α.

Well, it applies to sound waves.
If both sources are perfectly locked in phase - what can happen on two cylynder banks within one engine but can't happen on two engines or distinct musical instruments - you will have one perceived highier pich sound signature.
So by combining your two posts, do you agree that a statement of your position is as follows?

Superposition of two waves of the same frequencies will yield a wave of a higher frequency?

rjsa
rjsa
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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No, thats wrong.

Engine sound is far from a single senoidal wave. It's much more complex than that.

What I'm saying is that the sound from two pipes from the same engine produce the highier pitch sound.

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agip
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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I don't know if this could help but here I found vids for comparisson:

Renault RS01 V6T 1.5L single turbo.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y4E7p1MFJo[/youtube]

Renault RS10 V6T 1.5L twin turbo.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huxK_TC5jRg[/youtube]


I can perceive a difference but not sure if its the tone. What I can say is that the twin-turbo sounds "smoother" (don't know if its the right term)

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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rjsa wrote:In mathematics, a linear map or linear function f(x) is a function which satisfies the following two properties:
-Additivity (also called the superposition property): f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y).
-Homogeneity of degree 1: f(αx) = αf(x) for all α.

Well, it applies to sound waves.

I wont ague that having one or two tail pipes will change the character of the sound. Also the presence of the turbo. But the half frequency assumption does not float.
rjsa wrote:Engine sound is far from a single senoidal wave. It's much more complex than that.
What I'm saying is that the sound from two pipes from the same engine produce the highier pitch sound.
My next post has taken a while to format and put together, and I didn't want to lengthen it further with quotes. It's also not directly addressing your posts. But the techniques above can be used to show that V8's with two exhausts do indeed a fundamental pitch of half the firing frequency.

It will also show that it's the order content that gives the sound it's character.

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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A complex sound can be broken down into a series of superposed sine waves. By shifting a time domain ‘real sound' into the frequency domain to show a spectrum, via the use of a Fourier Transform.

Real noise will have a host of orders, and random background masking noise. Some tones will stick out above this and be audible. For ease of analysis you can simplify this by picking out the most prominent tones, and modelling them as superposed sine waves to get an approximation of the sound we will hear.

The first part of the post is simply a proof that the method works, the second part contains a comparison of the V6 and V8.
Wolfram Alpha will be used to plot and create audio tones.




Worked Example:
Plot of a Complex Tone Consisting of a Fundamental Sine Wave + 3 Overtones
sin(t) – Fundamental
sine(2t) – 1st Overtone
etc.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... 284t%29%29

Same Waveform With a Phase Change
The phase change chosen for this was 90degrees (or pi/2 radians).
sin(t+pi/2) - Fundamental
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... %2F2%29%29

Sum of the Two Complex Waveforms using Superposition
This plot shows both complex tones, superposed together.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... %2F2%29%29

The second method, to show that you can break down the tones into fundamental sine waves and do the same operation.

Fundamental Sine tone + fundamental tone + pi/2 Phase.
Also note, that summing these two sine waves produces a sine wave of the same frequency but of a third phase.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... %2F2%29%29
This sound would be exactly the same, as the ear itself cannot detect the phase of a single tone. (For the moment, auditory phenomena such as beats, and auditory illusions is beyond the scope of this point)

Plot of the simple tones + their phases summed together using Superposition.
This plot shows the two phased sine waves summed together.
Sin(t)+sin(t+pi/2) – Superposed fundamental
Sin(2t)+sin(t+pi/2) – superposed 2nd harmonic.
Etc.
Then all of the simple tones, superposed to give the resultant wave.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... %2F2%29%29
Please note that is method of superposing the sum of the simple tones gives the exact same result as superposing the two complex tones.

It is therefore valid to analyse the dominant tones as simple sine waves to give an approximation of the sound.






Comparison of a Cosworth V8 (twin exhaust outlets) with the new V6 turbo (single exhaust outlet)

By taking a spectrograh of a recording of the two engines, we can see the frequency content. Please note this data is by no means good quality. It’s recorded from youtube, using a phone. It should be enough for us to determine the order content, and the dominant tones we hear.

Data was captured using SpectroLog app. Using 4410Hz sample FQ, for a range of 2200Hz.

Unfortunately, SpectroLog only outputs a dumb image of the spectrum, not the scales. The x scale is just a time (s). The Y scale is frequency in (Hz) (0 at the bottom and 2205 at the top). The Z scale is dB. I will highlight, the frequencies of interest.




Cosworth V8 - 20,000RPM dyno run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLVp3SOKGJA
This run was used because it has a tacho on screen indication the rpm, there is also a nice couple of seconds of a steady 20k rpm. From 13 seconds. We will analyse this section.

Image

The Area of Interest is highlighted in the block box, as this corresponds to 20,000rpm in the video.
1st Order @ 20krpm = 333Hz
2nd Order @ 20krpm = 666Hz (1/2 firing frequency)
3rd Order @ 20krpm = 999Hz
4th Order @ 20krpm = 1332Hz (firing frequency)

As we can see from the colourmap, there are many orders. The most dominant on the run-up, seems to correspond do 2nd, 4th, and 6th orders. 1.5order appears to be also present (500Hz).

So now we can compare the sine tones for half the firing frequency, and the firing frequency.
At 20,000rpm – 2nd Order (1/2 firing frequency) tone
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... 33*2pit%29
At 20,000rpm – 4th Order (firing frequency) tone
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... 2pit%29%29
Note that the format for creating a sine tone of a specific frequency and phase http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave


It’s fairly clear that the pitch of the engine sounds much closer to the 666Hz sine tone. Indicating that it’s the half firing frequency you hear as the fundamental note.

Obviously this doesn’t show the full tone. So we can create a tone containing the three dominant engine orders. Plus the 1.5 order.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... 33*2pit%29

The coefficients are affecting the amplitude of the wave to give approximately equal spectral power. This sound gives a fairly representative tone when compared to the video 13-14 seconds, even considering the orders present on the colourmap but omitted from the analysis.

Wolfram Alpha has trouble with sampling non integer sine waves, so it's tricky to get half orders to work. This does have implications in real life tones, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)


2014 Renault V6 Turbo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8jz_Dgb8D4
This run was used, because it’s the only sound we’ve got for the new engine! Unfortunately there is no tacho; so we must make an educated guess as to the orders.

Image

We will again choose the flat area for analysis. Dominant tones are indicated at 530Hz, 1060Hz, 1340Hz, 1866Hz. And various other minor orders. The fundamental dominant tone is 530Hz.

If we assume this is the full firing order for a V6 (3rd order). We get an rpm of 530/3*60 = 10,600rpm.
If we assume this is half firing order (1.5order). We get an rpm of 530/1.5*60 = 21,200rpm.

It seems clear that the full firing order is the more sensible, which is what we would expect with a single exhaust orifice.
This gives the orders:
1st order = 176.6Hz, 3rd order = 530Hz, 6th order = 1060Hz
The other two tones don't relate to engine firing, but are 7.6order and 10.5order.

The tone of the two engine orders:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... 76*2pit%29

The tone of the engine orders + unknown contribution
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pl ... 76*2pit%29

As you can see the introduction of the half order content gives a more 'correct' sound, as it creates auditory beats. (Again, Wolfram Alpha doesn't really like non-integer sine waves, so it's tricky to play with this just using this calculator)


Summary
We can build rudimentary models using a summation of sine tones to estimate the sound from an engine.
The V8 noise, with it's two separate exhausts has a fundamental note based on 2nd order (half firing frequency).
The V6 with it's single exhaust orifice has a fundamental note based on 3rd order (full firing frequency).


A post of Ciro proportions.
Comments and questions welcome.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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I pull my cap for you and call you master sound analyser of F1technical. Good to know that Rob White was correctly reporting.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

rjsa
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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I won't argue the analysys.

But I will argue the input data.

You are comparing a V6 run recorded for publishing to a v8 run probably recorded from behind the insulated firewall.

If you have on track experience you know that what we hear from onboard camera recording is way duller than what you get from the pipes at grand stand distances. Even the 20k+ V10s sounded muted from onboard. Just like that V8 dyno run.

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WhiteBlue
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rjsa wrote: I will argue the input data. You are comparing a V6 run recorded for publishing to a v8 run probably recorded from behind the insulated firewall. If you have on track experience you know that what we hear from onboard camera recording is way duller than what you get from the pipes at grand stand distances. Even the 20k+ V10s sounded muted from onboard. Just like that V8 dyno run.
The issue here was the perceived frequency by the spectator and whether it is influenced in pitch by a different exhaust routing. I think it was comprehensively shown that indeed separate exhaust systems for the two banks of a V-engine result to a lower pitch than common routing. In theory this was already known by the testimony of the Renault expert. Your criticism is now addressing the different damping and recording conditions of the two engines. In my opinion damping will not fundamentally change the frequency composition. It will primarily influence the amplitude. Hence I feel your criticism is not applicable. I leave it to our local expert to confirm that point ultimately.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

rjsa
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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Just to make my point clear:

What one hears from facing the pipes:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63tjVT__2lI[/youtube]

And on the Dyno:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX2L-kS7ZL8[/youtube]

And last, but not least, the difference between on board and track side sound capture:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKV2WmNsWRI[/youtube]

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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What exactly is your point? As it's not clear. Are you asking a question as to why the sounds are different?

rjsa
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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xxChrisxx wrote:What exactly is your point? As it's not clear. Are you asking a question as to why the sounds are different?
No, I mean what you hear from the pipes is pretty different from what leaks thru dyno walls or even from the onboard camera, which is travelling ahead of the exhausts.

And could be that the use of dyno recordings on your analysys filtered some of the highier frequency stuff and biased the results. Because from my reading of the graphs the difference of amplitude between 2nd and 4th on the V8 was pretty narrow.

Not to mention that both the V8 2nd order and V6 3rd order frequncies are very close, suggesting more a case of mechanical resonance from engine / exhaust pipes than the frequency of the sound being produced within the exhaust and then muffled.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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rjsa wrote:Could be that the use of dyno recordings on your analysys filtered some of the highier frequency stuff and biased the results. Because from my reading of the graphs the difference of amplitude between 2nd and 4th on the V8 was pretty narrow.

Not to mention that both the V8 2nd order and V6 3rd order frequncies are very close, suggesting more a case of mechanical resonance from engine / exhaust pipes than the frequency of the sound being produced within the exhaust and then muffled.
I can tell you from the original post that your criticism is unjustified.
Summary
We can build rudimentary models using a summation of sine tones to estimate the sound from an engine.
The V8 noise, with it's two separate exhausts has a fundamental note based on 2nd order (half firing frequency).
The V6 with it's single exhaust orifice has a fundamental note based on 3rd order (full firing frequency).
He got the V8 frequencies properly identified by the tacho so we know the harmonics and their order beyond any doubt. The V6 harmonic identification is equally without the slightest doubt. If you have 10.600 or 21.200 rpm as possible solutions for the max rpm of the plateau the known fact that the fuel flow cap is at 10.500 makes it 99.9999% certain that this was the correct rpm for the dominant frequency.

If we accept that core piece of analysis it follows that we hear the V8 predominently with half firing order and the V6 with full firing order. QED
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

rjsa
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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@xxChrisxx, what software do you use? Even stuff I bought for the Mac will only analyse real time data from the microphone, not ideal...

rjsa
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Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
rjsa wrote:Could be that the use of dyno recordings on your analysys filtered some of the highier frequency stuff and biased the results. Because from my reading of the graphs the difference of amplitude between 2nd and 4th on the V8 was pretty narrow.

Not to mention that both the V8 2nd order and V6 3rd order frequncies are very close, suggesting more a case of mechanical resonance from engine / exhaust pipes than the frequency of the sound being produced within the exhaust and then muffled.
I can tell you from the original post that your criticism is unjustified.
Summary
We can build rudimentary models using a summation of sine tones to estimate the sound from an engine.
The V8 noise, with it's two separate exhausts has a fundamental note based on 2nd order (half firing frequency).
The V6 with it's single exhaust orifice has a fundamental note based on 3rd order (full firing frequency).
He got the V8 frequencies properly identified by the tacho so we know the harmonics and their order beyond any doubt. The V6 harmonic identification is equally without the slightest doubt. If you have 10.600 or 21.200 rpm as possible solutions for the max rpm of the plateau the known fact that the fuel flow cap is at 10.500 makes it 99.9999% certain that this was the correct rpm for the dominant frequency.

If we accept that core piece of analysis it follows that we hear the V8 predominently with half firing order and the V6 with full firing order. QED
WhiteBlue wrote:I leave it to our local expert to confirm that point ultimately.
If you are just to repeat your gospel you should follow your own advice. I'm trying to learn in the process here.

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WhiteBlue
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rjsa wrote:If you are just to repeat your gospel you should follow your own advice. I'm trying to learn in the process here.
That is not the impression one gets from your post. You are not even addressing the points I made. Btw. I don't like to be quoted out of context. My remark about leaving it to Chris was based on the previous exchanges. Then you posted another comment that clearly did not consider the details already given and that prompted my remark. It would be appreciated if we can argue technically here.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)