2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:
ringo wrote: ...
I'm expecting all engines to put out roughly the same horsepower. All teams will try their best to make maximum use of that 27.8 grams per second. All they can do is burn is efficiently without much heat loss, and then reduce parasitic loads and friction as best they can. I'd be surprised if one engine has a 50hp advantage.
But this is the entire idea, "You've got 1278 kW to play with, let's see what you can do with it?"

For once in a lifetime myself and WB agree, though I'd given the manufacturers more freedom.
If you have a look at the Red Bull engine activities it tells you what is going on. For some time an unknown investor with very deep pockets ran his own turbo engine development. Then all of a sudden that was stopped and we learned that Red Bull had a works deal with Renault. Later we learned that not only would the engines have a very narrow spec but they would be frozen very quickly as well. I see a certain coincidence in all of this. The private teams lead by Red Bull must have used their voting power in the FiA working groups and the F1 commission to create relatively tight restrictions for the manufacturers. Ferrari and Mercedes are probably not behind the idea to freeze the engines again. It benefits the customers who want to spend their money on aero and chassis work. They achieved that goal by restricting the manufacturer teams on the engine side.

I'm not a fan of this asymmetric cost control that gives free spending on aero and tight control on the power train side. I was hoping for more technical freedom and some form of budgetary restrictions for all relevant activities. As it looks now we are not going to have that, at least not on the engine side. The F1 politics suck if you ask me. I would prefer that F1 gives less rule making power to the chassis constructors and make it more attractive for automotive manufacturers.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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hollus
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I love how very brainy committees select their numbers after lots and lots of hours of scientific considerations. 100Kg/hr, 100Kg/race. 100 is such a beautiful number! It reminds me of the European Union's finely balanced environmental targets: "20-20 for 2020". But I think it will work just fine.

In my opinion, the reduced drag is a given already. First, apparently no exhaust blowing and then, with no beam wing, the diffuser - (beamwing) - rearwing coupling is gone and the whole rear end will produce much less downforce. So downforce will have to go down in the front as well to balance that (easy with the reduced wing area). Less downforce will almost automatically mean less drag. And although peak power figures might be up, average power figures are not, ensuring that designers don't simply trade power for drag as it used to be the norm. And then there is the fuel cap on top. I wouldn't be surprised if drag is down by more than 10%.
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matt21
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:I was thinking that we would get away from this torque-talk, it's all about power to the wheels.

When BMW's Paul Rosche granted Nelson boost for 1300 Hp at Östereichring Q 1984, it had nothing to do with torque.

Just brute and absolute power, then handled with a manual gearshift.

I was there, beholding an F1 car on roids, dry ice was all over the place, memories in time.

And the way Nelson handled those 1300 Hp for a lap or two, oh mama.
I just wanted to say that power is a function of torque and rpm
P [kW] = M [Nm] × n [rpm] ÷ 9549

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Actually in the physical law it isn't rpm but angular speed. But by having a numeric factor in the equation you can express it with rpm.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Semantics gentlemen, we've got 1278 kW coming in, we know that much, but what will we see at the wheels?

Personally, I would guess 600-650 Hp from the engine and the the rest from the MGU-K.

Is this reasonable?
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ringo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I would like to know what temperatures will see the intake butterflies.
Ie what temperatures will the intercoolers cool to. I've been using the assumption of 40 degrees C
For Sure!!

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WhiteBlue
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I don't think that we have any information about specific values, at least I have not read anything about it. So it is anybodies guess.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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ringo wrote:I would like to know what temperatures will see the intake butterflies.
Ie what temperatures will the intercoolers cool to. I've been using the assumption of 40 degrees C
Didn't the paper on the Honda RA 168E have a higher temperature?

Just had a quick scan, and maximum power was achieved with inatke temperatures of 40°C, but the fuel efficiency was not good enough.

It ended up being 70°C for the intake temperature, which gave the specific fuel consumption of 272g/kW/h and maximum power of 456kW (611hp). At 40°C intake temperature the power was 504kW (676hp). No mention of BSFC.

272kg/kW/h @ 456kW ~ 124kg/h fuel flow.

100kg/hr at that BSFC is 368kW (493hp).

BSFCs for power ranges people have discussed (600-750hp).

600hp (447.6kW) = 223g/kW/hr
625hp (466.3kW) = 214g/kW/hr
650hp (484.9kW) = 206g/kW/hr
675hp (503.6kW) = 199g/kW/hr
700hp (522.2kW) = 191g/kW/hr
725hp (540.9kW) = 185g/kW/hr
750hp (559.5kW) = 179g/kW/hr

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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The Honda engine ran on toluene based fuel which would have an impact on the temperature.
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djos
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Btw, whatever happened to Pure?

Was it just a hidden in plain sight front for a manufacturer?
"In downforce we trust"

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WhiteBlue
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djos wrote:Btw, whatever happened to Pure?
Was it just a hidden in plain sight front for a manufacturer?
Ultimately we do not know, but one has to assume that a cash rich team was behind it. A manufacturer would not be very likely to set up an outsourced operation for this kind of activity. He would buy an operation or set up a new one in house. So realistically only McLaren and Red Bull were suitable candidates. McLaren were never likely to pursue such a strategy because that isn't their operational pattern. They have always used a manufacturer as a cash cow by becoming their works team. Why should they suddenly after operating this way for 40 years change their strategy. In Red Bull's case it made a lot more sense. There was the immediate threat that engines would become a competitive advantage and one manufacturer could be able to run away with the performance. In that case they needed to have a top engine facility of their own. The way PURE was set up had all the smells of a Mateschitz investment. But then the 2014 engine spec becamme narrower and narrower until it was clear that very small advantages can be found. On top we now know that customer engines with different spec are impossible and that the engines will be frozen in relatively short time. Red Bull was able to get a works deal from Renault and that cancelled the need for PURE. At least all the puzzle pieces fit that theory. We cannot know at this time if it is correct.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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djos
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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That theory certainly makes a lot of sense. :)
"In downforce we trust"

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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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djos wrote:Btw, whatever happened to Pure?

Was it just a hidden in plain sight front for a manufacturer?
PURE was obviously initiated by Ron Dennis, a long lost friend of Pollocks, which became Honda a year ago.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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xpensive wrote:
djos wrote:Btw, whatever happened to Pure?

Was it just a hidden in plain sight front for a manufacturer?
PURE was obviously initiated by Ron Dennis, a long lost friend of Pollocks, which became Honda a year ago.
So you have changed your mind about that now? I seem to recall you once said the opposite.
unless it's another form of nordic humor :wink:
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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djos
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I think he's making a joke WB :-)
"In downforce we trust"