Your thoughts on who will win the teammate rivalries 2013?

[sennafan24]

Vettel beat webber by 0.5s quite a lot of times as well, why then is hamilton's achievement more worthy?

Rosberg is in his prime, and has been with the team years and is more used to the car. Webber has been over the hill since 2011, and has been with Red Bull for longer. That said, I do expect Vettel will outperform Kimi next year, and it will not just be because Kimi is new to the team. And I say that as a Kimi fan.

I get your general point, I have never been a Vettel fan but I have to admit this year he has proven the doubters wrong, and he is on top of the standings on merit even if he does still have the best all round car. I feel his win in Germany was the most impressive, as the Lotus boys did have a faster car on race day.

Lewis I have been impressed with this year as a whole, but yes his starts have been sub-par at times, I do think the Red Bull is a bot more handy at starts though. I am not sure how I would evaluate Alonso's year.

[SectorOne]

If Kimi arrives there will be no need for any bickering.
It´s going to be great, only thing missing would be Alonso having a stronger teammate.

[sennafan24]

If Kimi arrives there will be no need for any bickering.
It´s going to be great, only thing missing would be Alonso having a stronger teammate.

Sadly, I have a horrible feeling Massa is sticking about.

I would welcome Hulky or even Di Resta at this stage! I actually want Riccardo to take on Vettel, he is younger and has great qualifying pace. I believe he has more upside than JEV, so much potential that is only matched I think by Bianchi with the new breed.

One thing I would agree with the Vettel fan above is, even if Seb soundly beats Kimi or Riccardo, there is a chance Kimi will be dismissed as over the hill and Riccardo a bum, so is the nature of Vettel haters. I would know, as Lewis haters have been doing the same for years, trying to find holes in his performances when they are not really justified.

[mnmracer]

The worst thing here is was that I am actually giving Vettel credit, but you seem to want people to rank him as some superhuman combo of Senna and Schumi.

Somehow people think when vettel wins by 10s it's a boring race and that he simply had the best car. Strangely though, when hamilton or alonso win by a comfortable margin its always driver skill in a crap/sub par car (to red bulls of course). I aint saying vettel is better than them or anything like that, those words have been put into my mouth by some people here, but he is as good as. I'm just trying to point that out.

[sennafan24]

http://imageshack.us/a/img406/1658/f1ah ... gument.jpg

There will always be skeptics as Seb has had the best car since mid 2009. I can give him credit for his performances as it has not solely been down to the car, but I am not prepared to say he is a better driver than Lewis or Alonso. I think Lewis and Alonso would perform just as well in the Red Bull.

Balance is needed from both sides of the argument.

[Stradivarius]

These discussions will never end until the drivers in question end up in the same team. I think history has told us that we can't really say who is best before we have direct comparison. For example, people were very excited about Fisichella and Alonso both racing for Renault in 2005. But it turned out that Fisichella was not anywhere near Alonso. At the same time Montoya came to McLaren, but he was a big disappointment. Kimi was expected to outperform Massa when he moved from McLaren to Ferrari. But when he came to Ferrari, the two of them were clearly at a very similar level over a period of almost 3 seasons (until Massa got injured). And when Button moved to McLaren, many people believed that he would not stand a chance against Hamilton.

Some even still claim that he didn't, although he scored more points over 3 seasons. So it might even not be enough to see the same drivers in the same team for 3 seasons. Sure, Hamilton had some bad luck in 2012, but in my opinion, a driver can't be outscored over 3 full seasons at the same time as being substantially better than his team mate. If you are substantially better, that means you will score more points despite some bad luck. If it's luck that determines who scores the most points over several seasons, that means the drivers are performing at a very similar level.

[sennafan24]

These discussions will never end until the drivers in question end up in the same team. I think history has told us that we can't really say who is best before we have direct comparison. For example, people were very excited about Fisichella and Alonso both racing for Renault in 2005. But it turned out that Fisichella was not anywhere near Alonso. At the same time Montoya came to McLaren, but he was a big disappointment. Kimi was expected to outperform Massa when he moved from McLaren to Ferrari. But when he came to Ferrari, the two of them were clearly at a very similar level over a period of almost 3 seasons (until Massa got injured). And when Button moved to McLaren, many people believed that he would not stand a chance against Hamilton.

Some even still claim that he didn't, although he scored more points over 3 seasons. So it might even not be enough to see the same drivers in the same team for 3 seasons. Sure, Hamilton had some bad luck in 2012, but in my opinion, a driver can't be outscored over 3 full seasons at the same time as being substantially better than his team mate. If you are substantially better, that means you will score more points despite some bad luck. If it's luck that determines who scores the most points over several seasons, that means the drivers are performing at a very similar level.

I agree with your general point, but "substantially" is a bit much there, I do not think many fans would say Lewis is better to that extreme over Jenson. I consider Lewis to be better, but I would not go that far. Plus, there are too many variables to judge teammate comparisons on just points. But that is a debate for another day.

The Fisichella example is a excellent one, I watched the 2005 season review recently and I felt that Fisichella on his day could match Alonso, but his day did not come often enough. Alonso had the consistency. Montoya as much as I love him, was a bit of a flop at McLaren for various reasons also and Kimi out scored him over the 2 years there by a significant advantage.

Vettel will face a new test next year, and I cannot wait!. I want it to be Riccardo, but Kimi would be a good choice also.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think vetted will show up Kimi in quali and kimi will show vetted up in points
over the season. Reason being that right now, I think Vettel is pretty comfortable with marks pace so he never really has to worry about him. But with Kimi vettel's gonna be in the pressure cooker every race day.

[beelsebob]

I think vetted will show up Kimi in quali and kimi will show vetted up in points
over the season. Reason being that right now, I think Vettel is pretty comfortable with marks pace so he never really has to worry about him. But with Kimi vettel's gonna be in the pressure cooker every race day.

I can actually believe that if RedBull get a strong second driver their average result may drop, due to the lead driver having to push hard to stay in front of the second driver, and in doing so, both of them cooking their tyres.

[sennafan24]

Riccardo vs Vettel is qualifying could be very interesting, both I would rate highly in that area.

Say Riccardo is chosen and has a rough first year, I say stick with him. Couthard beat Kimi in their first head to head year on points, and Kimi's career was not harmed by it. I see the potential in Riccardo to become a top flight driver, and he has time to spare to achieve that.

Kimi is in the winter of his great career, and it could end up being his retirement fund. I do not want the Kimi of 2008 to turn back up where he underachieved in terms of performance. I feel Vettel is a horrible head to head for Kimi, and I am not sold that Kimi can make a impression on Vettel in race pace like said above.

I hope I am wrong and Kimi beats Seb, but I can see Vettel beating Kimi in modest fashion if that head to head happens.

[RB7ate9]

I can actually believe that if RedBull get a strong second driver their average result may drop, due to the lead driver having to push hard to stay in front of the second driver, and in doing so, both of them cooking their tyres.

Absolutely. Every F1 team dreams of consistency, and that extends to having 1 driver consistently in front of the other. It makes things easy, and it makes things predictable. 2011 was (relatively) easy and predictable. Vettel #1, Webber #3 or thereabouts. Red Bull would like to have that again.

In 2014, though, I think either driver RB chooses (Kimi or RIC) will be pushing hard. (On Topic) Vettel's got this year, 2014 will be interesting.

[beelsebob]

I can actually believe that if RedBull get a strong second driver their average result may drop, due to the lead driver having to push hard to stay in front of the second driver, and in doing so, both of them cooking their tyres.

Absolutely. Every F1 team dreams of consistency, and that extends to having 1 driver consistently in front of the other. It makes things easy, and it makes things predictable. 2011 was (relatively) easy and predictable. Vettel #1, Webber #3 or thereabouts. Red Bull would like to have that again.

In 2014, though, I think either driver RB chooses (Kimi or RIC) will be pushing hard. (On Topic) Vettel's got this year, 2014 will be interesting.

I just hope that Mercedes are mature enough to not do anything crazy and push for the title this year. Their assertion at the beginning of the season was that the 2013 car was a development car and that 2014 would be the year they shone... Hopefully they don't compromise that by thinking they can overcome RedBull's lead this year.

[sennafan24]

I just hope that Mercedes are mature enough to not do anything crazy and push for the title this year. Their assertion at the beginning of the season was that the 2013 car was a development car and that 2014 would be the year they shone... Hopefully they don't compromise that by thinking they can overcome RedBull's lead this year.

Agreed

Mercedes long term focus is 2014 and beyond. If you believe them, they already have half their force working on the 2014 car.

[beelsebob]

After Hungary:

RedBull
Vettel has outqualified Webber 10-0 - 50% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Vettel has outraced Webber 9-1 - 40.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Vettel has scored 62.1% of Red Bull's points – 12.1% above 50% – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS point.
Vettel is DOMINATING.

Ferrari
Alonso has outqualified Massa 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS points.
Alonso has outraced Massa 9-1 – 40.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Alonso has scored 68.6% of Ferrari's points – 18.6% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Alonso is DOMINATING

Lotus
Raikonnen has outqualified Grosjean 8-2 - 30.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Raikonnen has outraced Grosjean 9-1 – 40.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Raikonnen has scored 73.2% of Lotus' points (23.2% above 50%) – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Raikonnen is DOMINATING

Mercedes
Hamilton has outqualified Rosberg 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS points.
Hamilton has outraced Rosberg 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS points.
Hamilton has scored 59.6% of Mercedes' points (9.6% above 50%) – Fairly clear top dog – 1 BONUSS point.
Clear Top Dog: Hamilton (Hamilton ↑)

McLaren
Button has outqualified Perez 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Button has outraced Perez 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS points.
Button has scored 68.4% of McLaren's points (18.4% above 50%) – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
DOMINATING: Button

Force India
The drivers are level on qualifying results – 0 BONUSS points.
DiResta has outraced Sutil 6-4 – 10.0% above 50% – Fairly clear top dog – 1 BONUSS points.
DiResta has scored 61.0% of Force India's points (11.0% above 50%) – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS points.
Fairly clear top dog: DiResta

Toro Rosso
Ricciardo has outqualified Vergne 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS point.
The drivers are equal on race results – 0 BONUSS points.
Verge has scored 54.1% of Toro Rosso's points (4.1% above 50%) – Too close to call – 0 BONUSS points.
Slim leader: Ricciardo (Ricciardo ↑)

Sauber
Hulkenberg has outqualified Guttieres 10-0 - 50% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Hulkenberg has outraced Guttieres 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% - Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS points.
Hulkenberg has scored 100% of Sauber's points (50% above 50%) – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
DOMINATING: Hulkenberg

Williams
Bottas has outqualified Maldonado 6-4 – 10.0% above 50% – Fairly clear top dog – 1 BONUSS point.
The drivers are equal on race results - 0 BONUSS points.
Maldonado has scored 100% of Williams' points (50% above 50%) – DOMINATION – 3 BONUS points.
Slim leader: Maldonado (Maldonado ↑)

Marrussia
Biancci has outqualified Chilton 9-1 – 40.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Biancci has outraced Chilton 8-2 – 30.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Neither driver has scored
Biancci is DOMINATING

Caterham
Pic has outqualified Van Der Garde 7-3 – 20.0% above 50% – Clear top dog – 2 BONUSS points.
Pic has outraced Van Der Garde 8-2 – 30.0% above 50% – DOMINATION – 3 BONUSS points.
Neither driver has scored
Clear top dog: Pic

Hamilton is really beginning to stretch out against Rosberg, and Maldonado establishes himself against Bottas who had been leading up until now.

[LionKing]

For instance Sutil was much better than PDR in the race and whole weekend. Are your results based just on final race positions?