Best driver performance over a season of all time?

[sennafan24]

Times have changed though.

If you got pole before 2012 you were very likely to get at least a podium. These days with the different tyres, it is very much a different deal.

[Gerhard Berger]

Let's be realistic here, don't try and make out that Alonso is the only one that received praise for his drive that year.

I never said he is the only one that received praise, so stop being silly. Alonso received more praise for his driving in 2012 than any other driver. Team principles, fans, pundits - the majority of these all voted for Alonso as the best driver last year. So don't try and paint the picture any differently.

Since you're making the opposite statement (2012 showed Alonso's pace, not Massa's), why don't you answer your own question

I'm not making the opposite statement. I just think these things are not easy to judge.

You still didn't answer the first part of my post. You originally claimed that Vettel 2011 and Schumacher 2004 were the best drives you've ever seen over a single season because they made their respective cars look more dominant than they actually were. The question is, how do you know how dominant each car actually was?

[Gerhard Berger]

The Red Bull in essence, most certainly in 2011, is a car that doesn't work in dirty air, so anyone not being able to put in those blistering qualifying laps, would have already not been able to get those race performances.

Same could be said about any car. Dirty air affects all cars, not just the Red Bull.

And i guess you missed Webber's race in China, or Vettel's overtakes in Spa and Monza.

[mnmracer]

Let's be realistic here, don't try and make out that Alonso is the only one that received praise for his drive that year.

I never said he is the only one that received praise, so stop being silly. Alonso received more praise for his driving in 2012 than any other driver. Team principles, fans, pundits - the majority of these all voted for Alonso as the best driver last year. So don't try and paint the picture any differently.

So even after that line, you still don't get it?
Let me spell it out for you so you understand: I am not trying to paint the pictured that the majority of pundits did not vote Alonso as the best driver, I am saying that Alonso was not the only driver praised for his performance last year.

You still didn't answer the first part of my post. You originally claimed that Vettel 2011 and Schumacher 2004 were the best drives you've ever seen over a single season because they made their respective cars look more dominant than they actually were. The question is, how do you know how dominant each car actually was?

Technically, I know it just as much as everyone praising Alonso knows how bad the F2012 actually was. We don't. But we can judge the way they executed their performance, the close-ness of other cars, and the relative performance of their team-mates.

[mnmracer]

The Red Bull in essence, most certainly in 2011, is a car that doesn't work in dirty air, so anyone not being able to put in those blistering qualifying laps, would have already not been able to get those race performances.

Same could be said about any car. Dirty air affects all cars, not just the Red Bull.

And i guess you missed Webber's race in China, or Vettel's overtakes in Spa and Monza.

Everyone can see the on boards where Red Bulls with open DRS are not keeping up with Force India's. Everyone can see the more massive drop in performance as soon as they are in traffic, where a Ferrari cruises by others on top speed. I'm not going to debate this generally acknowledged bit of information, just as I wouldn't debate someone picking an argument saying the world is flat.

[Gerhard Berger]

[quote="mnmracerSo even after that line, you still don't get it?
Let me spell it out for you so you understand: I am not trying to paint the pictured that the majority of pundits did not vote Alonso as the best driver, I am saying that Alonso was not the only driver praised for his performance last year.[/quote]

I think it would be nicer if you didn't take such a patronising tone. There's no need for it.

Statements like "each having their own guardian angels to protect them and their own demons to fight, but they also each made their mistakes" made me think that you under the impression that each driver was praised equally for their performances over the year. Apologies, if that was not the case though.

Technically, I know it just as much as everyone praising Alonso knows how bad the F2012 actually was. We don't. But we can judge the way they executed their performance, the close-ness of other cars, and the relative performance of their team-mates.

I see. So it's not the "making the car look more dominant than it actually was" but simply making the car look better than it actually is. In that case, why not Mansell in 1992 then? and that's just 1 of many examples.

[Gerhard Berger]

The Red Bull in essence, most certainly in 2011, is a car that doesn't work in dirty air, so anyone not being able to put in those blistering qualifying laps, would have already not been able to get those race performances.

Same could be said about any car. Dirty air affects all cars, not just the Red Bull.

And i guess you missed Webber's race in China, or Vettel's overtakes in Spa and Monza.

Everyone can see the on boards where Red Bulls with open DRS are not keeping up with Force India's. Everyone can see the more massive drop in performance as soon as they are in traffic, where a Ferrari cruises by others on top speed. I'm not going to debate this generally acknowledged bit of information, just as I wouldn't debate someone picking an argument saying the world is flat.

We're not talking about top speed or gearing, so i don't see the relevence of what happens when the Red Bull has DRS open.

You have a very simplistic idea of F1 if you think Ferrari's just cruise by others because of top speed.

it's nothing like saying the world is flat. Stop being ridiculous.

[mnmracer]

We're not talking about top speed or gearing, so i don't see the relevence of what happens when the Red Bull has DRS open.

You have a very simplistic idea of F1 if you think Ferrari's just cruise by others because of top speed.

it's nothing like saying the world is flat. Stop being ridiculous.

If a Ferrari, or another top-speed car, is capable of doing faster, their top speed can help them overtake, and continue doing fast laps.
If a Red Bull is doing faster laps, but lacks the top speed to pass a slower car in front, they can not continue doing fast laps.

[sennafan24]

I think Mnmracers general point is, the limitations of Red Bull would prevent them from passing in 2011, but the car was the fastest making it a good front runner. So the car needed a top flight qualifier to make the most out the car, and Vettel fit the bill. I can agree on that to a certain degree, but I think even Lewis when he was off form in 2011 would have done a similar job, as if got it on pole the amount of times Vettel did, it is unlikely he would have had the same collisions with Massa and others he did that year.

I disagree Vettel's 2011 can be compared to Senna's 1991 and 1993 and Schumi's 2000. Senna in 1991 showcased a wider variety of driver skills than Vettel did in 2011, he won when he could and maximized his opportunities when he simply could not touch the faster Williams piloted by Mansell and Patrese.

Senna's consistency was out of this world in 1991, he scored in every race he crossed the line in, and only once when he crossed the line was he not on the podium. This was despite at least two cars being faster than him with the two Williams's. Alain Prost only finished ahead of Senna twice when both finished, and one of them was in his home time of France , whereas the other was Spain where if I recall right Senna had some sort of problem. If Senna's machinery did not let him down, he made the very most of it.

[Gerhard Berger]

We're not talking about top speed or gearing, so i don't see the relevence of what happens when the Red Bull has DRS open.

You have a very simplistic idea of F1 if you think Ferrari's just cruise by others because of top speed.

it's nothing like saying the world is flat. Stop being ridiculous.

If a Ferrari, or another top-speed car, is capable of doing faster, their top speed can help them overtake, and continue doing fast laps.
If a Red Bull is doing faster laps, but lacks the top speed to pass a slower car in front, they can not continue doing fast laps.

that's more about gearing rather than the aerodynamic effect of running in dirty air (your initial claim was the RB7 did not work in dirty air). One could easily make a case that shorter gearing was more beneficial in the race than in qualifying due to the limited DRS in the former.

You ignored the other points though. Why not Mansell in 1992? he seems to fit your bill of making a car look better than it is? or Alonso 2011? Schumacher 96?

[SectorOne]

This mantra is repeated over and over for the last 2 years, yet when asked about it, no one ever knows what "things" could be taken flat-out that others could not, apart from 1 corner (last in Barcelona).
So please, for the quality of this discussions, as I trust that you know what you are talking about, please tell us what corners other than turn 16 in Barcelona, could Red Bull take flat out where others could not?

Copse, Turn 8 Turkey etc.
There´s a few of them where the Red Bull easily took it flat and other had to back off a tiny bit.
I think with some more research you can also look at corners where the Red Bull ran DRS completely open through.
Or could open it extremely early.

The RB6 and RB7 were plain and simple monsters. People can deny that all they like if they want.

[Juzh]

Copse, Turn 8 Turkey etc.

Yep, copse was flat in 7th gear. Also turn 9 in barcelona flat in 6th gear. That is for RB6 of course. RB7 had nowhere near the downforce of its predecessor.

[SectorOne]

RB7 had nowhere near the downforce of its predecessor.

I´m not comparing the RB6 and RB7 downforce with each other. I´m comparing it with the competitition in their respective years.

And i´m really not having a go at Vettel, he drove perfectly in 2011 but for me those type of years are considered easy years.
2010 would have been another easy year if it weren´t for reliability.
2013 looks to me like his most impressive year although the competition STILL after 4,5 years not one single team has managed to consistently beat the Red Bull.
Mclaren is the only one that was even remotely close but we all know how that ended.

[Harsha]

RB7 had nowhere near the downforce of its predecessor.

I´m not comparing the RB6 and RB7 downforce with each other. I´m comparing it with the competitition in their respective years.

And i´m really not having a go at Vettel, he drove perfectly in 2011 but for me those type of years are considered easy years.
2010 would have been another easy year if it weren´t for reliability.
2013 looks to me like his most impressive year although the competition STILL after 4,5 years not one single team has managed to consistently beat the Red Bull.
Mclaren is the only one that was even remotely close but we all know how that ended.

First of all there is nothing easy in F1.
Also Vettel doesn't have an easy ride in 2011. He had to dug deep in that year to get some Poles and That enabled him to get victories. The Most Toughest ones he got Poles are Hungary 2011. He doesn't liked the update which altered Balance of the car. then his team changed his Car to Normal version by FP3 and He Duly stuck the car on Pole where Mclaren's are very quick. The Same kind of situation raised in suzuka. The Mclarens are pretty quick and He snatched pole from Jenson by 9 thousands of a Second. And At Abudhabi where he Really dug Much deeper to stuck that car on Pole. If you think those are easy rides too then

[lebesset]

Don't know how many have seen Peter Windsor's blog, but the link has so far been a fascinating read:

http://peterwindsor.com/category/jim-cl ... 63-season/

The more I read about Clark the more I wish I could have seen him race.

I saw him race a number of times in F1 cars , as well as frequently in other classes ...it was the era when the F1 drivers turned out in the supporting races

his ability to win while nursing a fragile car was legendary
he didn't make mistakes
he was universally regarded by his contemporary drivers as in a class of his own ...when he was killed one of them was quoted as saying...if it could happen to jimmy , what hope is there for the rest of us ?
fangio was once quoted as saying that jimmy was the best ever F1 driver after his era

I have to admit that at the time I was a graham hill fan , graham was a showman whereas jimmy was a taciturn scot , but in my heart I always knew who was the class of the field , the man who could always drive any car faster than anyone else

it is often said by people of my generation that they remember where they were when they learned that JFK had been killed ...I remember where I was when I heard about jimmy