2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
CBeck113
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Holm86 wrote:So no one thinks there could be any advantage in using boost pressure for aero trickery??
If the volume were much higher you could dump it out behind the car to increase the pressure where you need it most. But I can't imagine the boost pressure bringing any noticable difference in the wake of the car.
IF you did have the volume, this high pressure could be used to seal the diffusor, or sent over a wing (I believe that the rules only allow a beam to the main element or maybe the rear brake "cooling" elements?). But you need a very high flow in order to see a difference.

"Hey, let's ask Adrian!" Sorry, the old Life cereal commercial just shot into my mind: http://youtu.be/vYEXzx-TINc
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WhiteBlue
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ringo wrote:A servo drive is a DC motor, A generator must be alternating current.
I have to disagree. The MGUs will be AC servo machines with self inducting coils and permanent magnets. They are often referred to as AC servo motors, but they can easily work as generators as well. So your limitation of servo motors to DC technology is not correct. There is a wide spread use of AC servo technology in the automotive and machinery industry. I have given a Wickipedia link to identify the technology. You can check it out there.
ringo wrote:But mostly, a motor/ generator is a load, it is not a relief valve, it cannot control exhaust mass flow through the turbine.
You also put yourself in a compromising position by the flow profile of the turbine and compressor if you cannot have any control of flow through it.
You will have only one compressor flow/ turbine flow profile for the turbine, but all you will able to do is to retard it by loading the turbine with the MGUH, and increase back pressure and heat soak by doing that. When you have a waste gate you will be able to change the profile of the turbine flow relative to compressor flow for various situations.
This is an imperfect world, you never know what situations may arise where you will need to drop the back pressure off the engine or change the turbine performance on a dime.
A load cannot do that, the most it will do is retard and stress things.
A waste gate is the simpler and cheapest form of auxiliary control. It is controlling flow, which is much different to torque therefore the likelyhood of stalling the turbine is much reduced. A generator runs a high risk of stalling. The waste gate is a fail safe and i wont be surprised if all the engines have wastegates on their exhaust systems. It's also another means of modifying engine breaking as well when the driver comes off throttle.
I have not denied that there could be benefits for waste gates in failure situations. You have never addresses the point that we are not likely to get any excessive back pressure in standard operational mode. The turbine will be designed to deal with whatever loads the normal operation is going to put on it including temperatures and pressures at full power setting of the ICE and full load of the MGU-H. Equally the designers will consider thermal and mechanical loads gradients that occur in standard acceleration and deceleration profiles. The MGU-H by merit of it's working principle will have a much higher dynamic capability to handle transients than the ICE is ever likely to produce.
So there is no rational need for a waste gate except for certain failure modes
  • like sensor loss,
  • mechanical failures and events of similar nature like the
  • control system going suddenly off line.
The loss of the rotary encoder from the MGU would be particularly fatal. The angular position of the magnets would be unknown and the machine would immediately go non-operational and into fail safe mode.
In the case of the first and third failure mode you probably do not want the turbo to explode and spill it's guts all over the circuit. Therefore a waste gate would be a sensible fail safe option in my view.

One has to consider that teams will only have five of the units from each of the six elements of the power unit. If you have a sensor failure or a faulty cooling circuit on the power electronics you may not want it to affect the turbo assembly, the ICE or the MGU-H.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 23 Jul 2013, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Holm86
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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CBeck113 wrote:
Holm86 wrote:So no one thinks there could be any advantage in using boost pressure for aero trickery??
If the volume were much higher you could dump it out behind the car to increase the pressure where you need it most. But I can't imagine the boost pressure bringing any noticable difference in the wake of the car.
IF you did have the volume, this high pressure could be used to seal the diffusor, or sent over a wing (I believe that the rules only allow a beam to the main element or maybe the rear brake "cooling" elements?). But you need a very high flow in order to see a difference.

"Hey, let's ask Adrian!" Sorry, the old Life cereal commercial just shot into my mind: http://youtu.be/vYEXzx-TINc

I wasn't thinking about filling the entire wake. But perhaps just the underside of the rearwing. Or using the excess boost in a fluid switch in a DRD system.

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WhiteBlue
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xpensive wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
xpensive wrote:I'm not so sure if powering the MGU-K directly will make much sense, it would be xtremely intermittent, almost unpredictable.
How do you arrive at that conclusion? ...
Because it will work just like a wastegate, cut in only when the compressor has reached the targetpressure, before then, nothing.
I still have problem to understand how the kinetic MGU can work as a waste gate? You are probably talking of the heat MGU?

If we are looking at the operation of the MGU-H it actually has a continuous working profile around the torque balance point. Under the match point it provides positive torque to the turbo shaft which gradually reduces as the ICE and the shaft spool up. At the balance point the MGU goes to zero torque and beyond it it will again gradually apply negative torque to the shaft. All of this is not done in steps but gradually and with an extremely high dynamic capability of the servo drive. It by far outperforms any dynamics of the mechanical components in the system as long as the system integrity is given.
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WhiteBlue
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ringo wrote:
wuzak wrote:
xpensive wrote:I'm not so sure if powering the MGU-K directly will make much sense, it would be xtremely intermittent, almost unpredictable.
On the contrary, I should think that the MGUH's power generation will be entirely predictable and quite smooth.
Depends on the storage, ie the state of the batteries, or the state of the loads on the MGUH. Let's say the MGUH powers the MGUK and the car is in a corner with wheel spin and engine speeed fluttering?
Any such transient effects can easily be smoothed by the capacity in the intermediary DC link that connects the two MGUs. The battery storage will not even be used for the purpose. The MGUs themselves will be ultra fast reacting and will be much faster than the mechanical events happening on a race car.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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WhiteBlue wrote: ...
The MGUs themselves will be ultra fast reacting and will be much faster than the mechanical events happening on a race car.
Is that so, I had no idea.
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WhiteBlue
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xpensive wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:...The MGUs themselves will be ultra fast reacting and will be much faster than the mechanical events happening on a race car.
Is that so, I had no idea.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 08#p443808
I have quoted a scientific paper that confirms the opinion for automotive applications. My own experiences are based on different applications but the physical model is comparable and the technology used is the same.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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WhiteBlue wrote: ...
I have quoted a scientific paper that confirms the opinion for automotive applications.
...
If that's what you did, a Swedish paper at that, it must be the truth of the day then.
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ringo
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In my experience with electrical drive industrial equipment, there was a shift to DC then back to AC motors.
Reason being the AC motors are much more robust and reliable. Those have higher duty cycles and their controllers are not as delicate as the DC controllers. The rectifier circuits in a DC generator is just added delicacy and weight.
AC motors are the thing to have for high loads and long operational hours.
I doubt the MGUH will be a DC servo type.

As i said it can only provide torque on the shaft, a load. It will only change the load profile, but it cannot change how the flow through the cylinders and to the turbine correlates with the flow through the compressor. A waste gate is a better, simpler, cheaper, reliable, more efficient form of control.
I am not discounting the harvesting capabilitites of the MGUH, but harvesting can only do so much.

In fact i can create a situation where it would be beneficial to open the wastegate and use the MGUH to accelerate the turbine for back pressure reasons. There are more dimensions to look at when u have that waste gate and in fact the waste gate itself is what i would make servo controlled.
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WhiteBlue
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xpensive wrote:.... a Swedish paper at that, it must be the truth of the day then.
I knew it would please you.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 23 Jul 2013, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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WhiteBlue
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ringo wrote:In my experience with electrical drive industrial equipment, there was a shift to DC then back to AC motors.
Reason being the AC motors are much more robust and reliable. Those have higher duty cycles and their controllers are not as delicate as the DC controllers. The rectifier circuits in a DC generator is just added delicacy and weight.
AC motors are the thing to have for high loads and long operational hours.
I doubt the MGUH will be a DC servo type.
I do agree with that experience. The modern controllers rely on IGPTs ( some kind of power semi conductors). Coincidentally the motors and the drives became water cooled when the automation industry stated to push the AC technology to make the equipment lighter and mobile. Only by increased cooling you can go into overload dynamic operations. It became an easy way to identify the advanced designs.
ringo wrote:As i said it can only provide torque on the shaft, a load. It will only change the load profile, but it cannot change how the flow through the cylinders and to the turbine correlates with the flow through the compressor. A waste gate is a better, simpler, cheaper, reliable, more efficient form of control.
I am not discounting the harvesting capabilitites of the MGUH, but harvesting can only do so much.
The problem is with the fuel capped formula you cannot afford to waste energy that you can regenerate. It means that you have to use the MGU-H for practically all situations but the failure based events to limit your boost pressure. If you don't do it the other guy will do it and get more electric power to get to the chequered flag faster.
ringo wrote:In fact i can create a situation where it would be beneficial to open the wastegate and use the MGUH to accelerate the turbine for back pressure reasons. There are more dimensions to look at when u have that waste gate and in fact the waste gate itself is what i would make servo controlled.
That would be a possible operating mode, only that I don't see the need to reduce the back pressure in a situation where you are spooling up the compressor or turbo shaft.
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pgfpro
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One of the ways to keep from hurting things in a MGUH failure is to simple build a fuel cut or ignition cut if you see any over boost. Very easy to map out I do it with all my turbo cars.;)
Last edited by pgfpro on 24 Jul 2013, 00:19, edited 4 times in total.
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xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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What is the worst thing that can happen with an over-boost as long as the fuel-flow is limited, won't the throttles govern this?

Please xplain pg.
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WhiteBlue
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pgfpro wrote:One of the ways to keep from hurting things in a MGUH failure is to simple build a fuel cut or ignition cut if you see any over boost. Very easy to map out I do it with all my turbo cars.;)
Very good idea. I like that! =D>

You can take the energy out of the exhaust immediately and completely or partially which should take care of any excess back pressure from one injection to the next. So in effect your interdiction time is two milliseconds @ 10.500 rpm. Not bad.
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pgfpro
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xpensive wrote:What is the worst thing that can happen with an over-boost as long as the fuel-flow is limited, won't the throttles govern this?

Please xplain pg.
As a real example on my Talon I was tuning and working on the timing and fuel maps a couple weeks ago. My waste-gate boost controler line blew off and the wastegate went completely closed. Boost spike instantly!!! The duty cycle that I'm at is at 90% under normal boost conditions. In my fuel map anything over my max boost conditions or 92% I pull all of the fuel out as in 0% duty cycle. Also in my timing maps the same deal but instead of all fuel remove it goes into timing retard at -8*.

If I were to just let it keep increasing in boost and not pull all the fuel and timing it would have enough fuel and timing to detonate and kill the engine.

In my example its a lot like what F1 will see with their fuel flow limit.
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