2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[wuzak]

You have it for electric power generation. It cannot limit boost. It will only retard the time it takes to come up to max boost. This requires power.

It will control the turbo shaft speed, which controls the boost produced. Which is exactly what the wastegate does - in a different manner. It controls shaft speed by reducing the amount of power the turbine produces.

You may see this a boost limiting if you use it as a load on the turbine, but in truth it's really a turbine brake more than anything else. So you may interpret this as a limit, but it's not, it is retardation.
It is this retardation that will require a lot of research and testing and fine tuning. You can't instantly cut off boost with this thing. It will have to instantly resist the turbine and then easing up at exactly the right time, with the right level of retardation to maintain a steady turbine speed, all of this happening while back pressure and temperatures increase.

The boost of the compressor is related to its rotational speed. Controlling its speed is what the MGUH does.

You can't instantly cut off boost with a wastegate either - there is a delay, though that may be small.

I'm not up to speed with electrics, but I believe that they could bring the turbine to a dead stop if they wanted - very bloody fast!

A true boost limiter is a waste gate. It is not a load, it is a relief that reduces mass flow through the turbine. Quite simple and more direct. Very smooth and straight forward.

And a waste of precious energy.

You are allowed ~4,600 MJ of energy per race, and you are going to throw away 100MJ+? Or 2%. Doesn't sound a lot. But when you are already throwing ~65% away in the ICE, you are losing 100MJ from ~1,600MJ of race energy usage. Or ~6%.

What we must realize is that the MGUH is no different than the compressor. All it does is compete for turbine power.
But what complicates things is that it shares a mechanical connection to the compressor, it is not a free power turbine like a helicopter engine, where different loads need not run at the same speed.
You will find that what you take off in power for the MGUH may not correspond to what you would like to take off in power for the compressor as these power draws give different outcomes at a certain shaft speed.

The MGUH only takes off the excess power not required for the compressor. That is, if the turbine is making 100hp, for argument's sake, and the compressor requires 80hp, the MGUH will only take off 20hp.

Using the controller this can be done very precisely and adjusted very quickly.

There is going to be a tricky balance if the MGUH is used to slow the turbine to control boost.
You can slow the turbine by loading it with the battery or the MGUK, or you can use the battery to drive the MGUH magnetic field in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure what you mean by load it with the battery or MGUK?

The MGUH will only see the controller. The controller will convert the current to DC for storage in the battery. Or it will convert it for use by the MGUK - I'm not sure if this will involve a rectifier and inverter (MGUH and MGUK frequencies will probably rarely be matched).

There is going to be a tricky balance if the MGUH is used to slow the turbine to control boost.
You can slow the turbine by loading it with the battery or the MGUK, or you can use the battery to drive the MGUH magnetic field in the opposite direction.

Load the turbine, with the MGUH behaving as a resistance. The power drawn must be sent through to the batteries. This easier for boost control because the power is unlimited, The batteries physical limitations for recharge rates will have to tie into your turbine boost control. Very tricky.. If the rate is higher than the power required the MG controller can meter the MGUH loading.

If it's going through the MGUK now, or to something to power a 12v dc load on the car, it must go through the MG control unit. Now this is unlimited, but the truth is it really isn't. The MGUK can give only 120kW to the drivetrain. The unlimited stuff goes back to the batteries. In the event you want control boost and your energy store is full. The MGUH must draw a specific amount of power, to create a specific amount of load on the turbine to give a specific turbine speed to limit boost. You have up to 120kW to do this. If the turbine needs more than 120kW to slow it down, your goose is cooked, you should have shed power off your batteries. Can you predict this? nope! lol

The amount of energy that can be transferred between the MGUH and MGUK is unlimited. The amount of energy that can be transferred to the batteries is between 2MJ (full MGUK braking recovery) and 4MJ (no MGUK braking recovery).

There isn't a size limitation to the MGUH. It can take all the load that the turbine can give.

Also, the controller is probably clever enough to be able to push 120kW to the MGUK and send any remainder to the battery. Personally I can't see the MGUH ever producing 120kW+.

The turbine will be sized to take into account the size and capability of the MGUH.

Electric machinery can be very precisely controlled. And it can be adjusted very quickly.

Now using the loading method is quite difficult and i don't think teams will go that route as it's very dependent on what the car is doing on track and the ES state. It's basically playing an all knowing being, a lot of headache to figure out just to control a stupid little compressor. This loading method is less stressful and is more natural but really requires God like awareness of the whole energy system and car to control turbine shaft speeds. Closed looped system with speed sensor tied into the various loads; battery, ancillaries and engine load, will be required.

Like every system on an F1 car. There are feedback sensors to everything, though some aren't allowed to be actively used for control (thinking things like traction control), but can be sent back to the pits in a telemetry burst, or logged for review later.

I don't think all these systems need to be "all knowing". They need to know what the throttle pedal is doing - already signals for that, they have been using electronic throttles for years. And they need to know what the ICE is doing. They have traditionally had sensors for everything, and will continue to do so.

When the power requirement (throttle) and current engine conditions are known, the values for boost, fuel flow rate, etc, come off a map. That map will tell the computer how much power will need to be drawn from the MGUH in order to maintain the correct boost.

Honestly, I think you are making it sound more complicated than they are. Of course the devil is in the detail - getting the systems working as intended will take some tuning and experimentation, working to define and refine the maps.

The other method is attempting to reverse the turbine against exhaust flow.
What i mean like this is to drive the MGUH magnetic field in the opposite direction with the batteries with a certain power lesser than the shaft power. The net torque will be what determines your limited turbine shaft speed. This is most unnatural, as it's a counter action more than a load. However it's easier to do since the battery is isolated from the rest of the loads around the car. The engineer need only look at the unlimited battery to MGUH path as a boost control. Is it worth using battery power to limit boost? Why use your precious energy to control a turbine? Well if what is dumped through the wastegate, is less power than the battery energy required to brake a turbine, then i'd dump it.
If it's less power to use the battery, then i'd consider it but many other factors have to be looked at like temps. response time.

I have no idea what you said there!

But, to reiterate, there is no pwer limit on the MGUH, but there is an energy limit to how much can be dumped in the battery pack.

[xpensive]

Has anyone done a more "scientific" calculation on what can be xpected from the MGU-H if the engine runs sans wastegate?

[Tommy Cookers]

try the pages 145-158 of this thread ?
it's in there somewhwre
ringo revised his p 145 tabulation to a later figure around 70 hp (I seem to have used this and it was not disputed at the time)
sorry, ringo !

[WhiteBlue]

Has anyone done a more "scientific" calculation on what can be xpected from the MGU-H if the engine runs sans wastegate?

Ringo did and I have asked him to put up the figures here again for our benefit. He did a thermodynamic calculation based on exhaust temperature.

[xpensive]

try the pages 145-158 of this thread ?
it's in there somewhwre
ringo revised his p 145 tabulation to a later figure around 70 hp (I seem to have used this and it was not disputed at the time)
sorry, ringo !

Right, 70 Hp with 90 efficiency of the generator makes for 46 kW, just where Wuz estimated it to be and some 10% of my estimated engine power, in that case I should perhaps reconsider my position on the relative value of the installation.

But again, the practicalities of said installation won't be easy, cooling will definitely be an issue.

[wuzak]

try the pages 145-158 of this thread ?
it's in there somewhwre
ringo revised his p 145 tabulation to a later figure around 70 hp (I seem to have used this and it was not disputed at the time)
sorry, ringo !

Right, 70 Hp with 90 efficiency of the generator makes for 46 kW, just where Wuz estimated it to be and some 10% of my estimated engine power, in that case I should perhaps reconsider my position on the relative value of the installation.

But again, the practicalities of said installation won't be easy, cooling will definitely be an issue.

Cooling of the MGUK, ES, charge cooling, etc, will be a headache!

[xpensive]

I think the MGU-K is doable, but how to prevent the 100 000+ Rpm MGU-H from overheating concerns me, 4-5 kW might
not sound like much but is a pretty decent heater. Besides, the MGU-H is sitting in an awkward position in the car.

[Tommy Cookers]

the Wright 'Turbo-Compound' recovered in low power cruise an increment of 6% of crankshaft power, and 18% at takeoff power
the CR was only 6.5:1 or less, the PRTs were axial flow

some of the power gain at takeoff rpm appears to come from the exhaust system on 12 cylinders being of tuned length
the non T-C version of the engine (like all other aero engines) did not have tuned exhaust pipe lengths

[wuzak]

If we take 18% - call it 20% (improvements in turbine design), and assume a 600hp ICE, we are looking at 120hp. But from that we need to subtract the power needed for the compressor.

By the same token, the Allison turbocompound was good for 2900hp (for as long as the turbine lasted), the base engine was normally good for 2200hp. That is a difference of around 30%. That would mean 180hp on our 600hp ICE.

[WhiteBlue]

I think the MGU-K is doable, but how to prevent the 100 000+ Rpm MGU-H from overheating concerns me, 4-5 kW might
not sound like much but is a pretty decent heater. Besides, the MGU-H is sitting in an awkward position in the car.

That is not the heat that the MGU will absorb alone. Part of that will be dissipated in the elctronics. Both units will be water cooled. So not really critical IMO.

[xpensive]

Electronics aside, show me a 100 000+ Rpm generator with an efficiency of more than 90% and I'll be impressed.

Watercooling this and watercooling that, can you see where this is going?

[Tommy Cookers]

If we take 18% - call it 20% (improvements in turbine design), and assume a 600hp ICE, we are looking at 120hp. But from that we need to subtract the power needed for the compressor.

By the same token, the Allison turbocompound was good for 2900hp (for as long as the turbine lasted), the base engine was normally good for 2200hp. That is a difference of around 30%. That would mean 180hp on our 600hp ICE.

the 2014 engines will have a geometric CR very much higher than any of these T-C aero engines had
so there will be (relatively) far less exhaust energy left for the turbine to recover
because relatively more energy will have been extracted by the pistons

[xpensive]

Sounds reasonable, but I wonder now much a 50 kW and 100 000 Rpm micro-generator will be, 10-15 kg or more?

[pgfpro]

try the pages 145-158 of this thread ?
it's in there somewhwre
ringo revised his p 145 tabulation to a later figure around 70 hp (I seem to have used this and it was not disputed at the time)
sorry, ringo !

This is what I got also 70 HP. I thought we all agreed on this.

[WhiteBlue]

70 hp would be the power of the MGU once you have taken off the compressor? Sounds a bit lowish but I'm open to use it until we get better figures elsewhere. It sounds a bit foolish to me to let 70 ponies run away over a waste gate. I can't imagine an F1 engineer will like to do that if he can make power of 90% of that.