Ferrari F138

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
timbo
timbo
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Re: Ferrari F138

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The FOZ wrote:2009 was a prime example. Toyota started with a working DDD, so clearly their tunnel wasn't THAT bad. Race by race they slipped further down the pecking order, and by Monaco they qualified DFL. Unless the tunnel had some sort of progressive problem that got worse over the course of the season...my money is on "the people were the problem"
But why do you think people were not the problem during winter, like windtunnel itself could produce a DDD, but during the season people become the problem?

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: Ferrari F138

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Toyota's tunnel is a state of art, and is used by many, so no question about its correctness.

Mclaren have also used it.
Last edited by Kiril Varbanov on 31 Jul 2013, 13:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Hail22
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Re: Ferrari F138

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:Toyota's tunnel is a state of art, and is used by many, so no question about its correctness.
Spot on! It's the home wind tunnel of the 2012 and 2013 Toyota WEC LMP1 Race cars...best person to ask about the Cologne wind tunnel per say would be Anthony Davidson as he is one of Toyota's LMP1 drivers :)
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

bhall
bhall
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Re: Ferrari F138

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Given the numerous tweaks made to the outside of the diffuser and testing therof, where the interaction between the tires and airflow under the car is critical to the effectiveness of the exhaust, and the constant back-and-forth testing of various sidepod/exhaust solutions (since Spain), I wonder if it's possible that, like McLaren, Ferrari received shitty wind tunnel tires from Pirelli.

That is very much a correlation issue, and it's one that would occur regardless of the wind tunnel used. It's also a problem that might not reveal itself in the initial stages of development of an otherwise strong package during the early rounds of a Championship where competitive balance was almost singularly defined by making best use of tire durability - such was a strength of the early-spec F138. Constant changes to the actual tires, such as those we've seen lately, would likely only exacerbate those correlation issues.

Just a thought.
emmepi27 wrote:I made a comparision with old versions
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Forza wrote:Image
stefan_ wrote:Image
BlackSwan wrote:Image
Last edited by bhall on 31 Jul 2013, 10:52, edited 3 times in total.

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Re: Ferrari F138

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bhallg2k wrote:Given the numerous tweaks made to the outside of the diffuser and testing therof, where the interaction between the tires and airflow under the car is critical to the effectiveness of the exhaust, and the constant back-and-forth testing of various sidepod/exhaust solutions (since Spain), I wonder if it's possible that, like McLaren, Ferrari received shitty wind tunnel tires from Pirelli. That is very much a correlation issue, and it's one that would occur regardless of the wind tunnel used. It's also a problem that might not reveal itself in the initial stages of development of an otherwise strong package during a season in which making best use of tire durability almost singularly defined the opening stages of the Championship - such as the early-spec F138.

Just a thought.
Are you refering to the latest design tires or the previous ones? Maybe they made a mistake by the previous ones (i.e. got it right but didn't know why) and tried the same approach with the new ones....
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

timbo
timbo
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Re: Ferrari F138

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:Toyota's tunnel is a state of art, and is used by many, so no question about its correctness.
The first statement is not a proof of whether it correlates or not, the second depends on the application, what works in LMP or general car production might not be enough in F1.
Why the team is able to produce a car which clearly works during the first races but then can't improve it?
IMO the reason can be this: say the big changes are worth 1 sec per lap. so a big change in aero efficiency, each update during the season is worth 0.3 secs per lap. The tunnel may produce correct trend but have tolerance big enough that producing a small update would be problematic while making a big changes easier.
Yet another reason might be that it is too perfect. Say it produces data which are much more reliable and are less "noisy" than in other tunnels, the engineers may produce update that works in that environment but on track it fails to perform because of vibrations thermal deflections etc. On a "noisier" tunnel (maybe the flow is not that stable etc) if the part is working it would work on track too.
And yet another reason might be that scale models are not accurately reflecting the actual parts in production.
All in all I think the problem now is that the tunnel/track correlation produces reliable general trand but has far higher random error than that of other teams.

bhall
bhall
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Re: Ferrari F138

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CBeck113 wrote:Are you refering to the latest design tires or the previous ones? Maybe they made a mistake by the previous ones (i.e. got it right but didn't know why) and tried the same approach with the new ones....
I edited my post to make that unwieldy beast of a final sentence more sensible to human eyes. Hopefully it makes more sense.

timbo
timbo
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Re: Ferrari F138

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bhallg2k wrote:Given the numerous tweaks made to the outside of the diffuser and testing therof, where the interaction between the tires and airflow under the car is critical to the effectiveness of the exhaust, and the constant back-and-forth testing of various sidepod/exhaust solutions (since Spain), I wonder if it's possible that, like McLaren, Ferrari received shitty wind tunnel tires from Pirelli.

I don't think it is possible (only few teams receiving "bad" tyres while other receive "good"), too much of a conspiracy.
But the scale tyres seem to be "problematic" indeed. Maybe others have better work-arounds.
bhallg2k wrote:That is very much a correlation issue, and it's one that would occur regardless of the wind tunnel used. It's also a problem that might not reveal itself in the initial stages of development of an otherwise strong package during the early rounds of a Championship where competitive balance was almost singularly defined by making best use of tire durability - such was a strength of the early-spec F138.
And that is what I'm also pointing at.

However, it might also be simpler. It might be that early form is entirely due to better tyre understanding and better setup, while the car itself is lacking much. Others could make big gains understanding tyres and adjusting setups, while Ferrari is already at max in that respect. So the upgrades that other teams make maybe give them a tenth or two, while everything else is due to setup, while Ferrari has to make up everything with aero tweaks. Still it is worrying that during last three years the team never managed to produce a mid season upgrade which works as expected.

bhall
bhall
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Re: Ferrari F138

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I don't think it's a conspiracy, and I also don't discount the idea that other teams have faced similar issues despite different outcomes. But, because of Pirelli's track record, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to consider that the data they supply may very well be as uneven as the tires they supply.

Again, just a thought.

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Ferrari F138

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GA's take on new F138 diffuser & FW in Hungary.


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via AutoSport

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via AutoSport

max_speed
max_speed
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Re: Ferrari F138

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is anyone aware of outcome of 3day test in magny corus ?. have not seen any article or discussion on this.

f1316
f1316
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Joined: 22 Feb 2012, 18:36

Re: Ferrari F138

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There was this in la stampa recently:

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Someone with a better grasp of Italian can probably explain it, but I would presume it's talking about new front and rear wings and an "optimised" DRS?

*Edit: supposedly updates for Spa and Monza

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ecapox
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Joined: 14 May 2010, 21:06

Re: Ferrari F138

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1. The exhaust exits are oriented so that hot gasses do not blow on the rear tires, which deteriorates them.
2. New rear wing that optimizes the airflow.
3. Aerodynamic solutions even with the front wing so that it can be adapted to fast tracks.

Pretty blah reporting with generalizations. No specifics here, move along...but thats expected from La Stampa.

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diffuser
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Re: Ferrari F138

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max_speed wrote:is anyone aware of outcome of 3day test in magny corus ?. have not seen any article or discussion on this.

Not sure what you're expecting??? From what I read they're trying to get a better handle around windtunnel and real world aero. So we know they have the F150 and Demo tires. So they must have parts made for the F150 that they made from the wind tunnel. Those are being tested I presume to see where, why and how things are different. So they can adjust their models.

I'm not sure they ever went into the specifics of their correlation issues and so what comes out of these tests will just be as vague(To us only hopefully).

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sucof
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Joined: 23 Nov 2012, 12:15

Re: Ferrari F138

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If this is true, I find these tests a pretty nice idea, I always wondered if they have such colleration issues, why don't they produce some experimental wings for friday just to see how things are working in real life. They could make wings completely not producing downforce, just stuff like testing basic aerodynamic principles with the ability to exactly measuring differences between tunnel and real world data. I think such tests would be allowed on fridays and especially on private tests, and would be very useful.