2014 Engine yin yang

[SectorOne]

It´s 2014 but still relevant if true. Certainly an interesting answer to Mercedes wanting wider rears.

Mercedes is reportedly set to be the power to have in Formula 1′s new V6 turbo engine era with the Brixworth built unit set to have a huge advantage over those from rival engine builders.

With the development-frozen V8 engines to be replaced by radically-different turbo units in 2014, a new era where power is more important than aerodynamics looks likely.

Mercedes, already a leader at the tail end of the long V8-power era, could be in pole position to usurp Red Bull’s position at the very top of the tree.

Hungary winner Lewis Hamilton is now an outside chance for this year’s title, but the Briton was actually lured to Mercedes “on the promise that he will be able to take on (Sebastian) Vettel in 2014,” wrote Auto Motor und Sport correspondent Tobias Gruner.

So far, Formula 1′s three V6 engine makers – Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari – have kept their cards close to their respective chests.

“There are signs that Mercedes is one step ahead”, Gruner reported.

“In the paddock, it is said behind closed doors that the silver engine has 100 horse power more on average than the Renault or Ferrari.

“Mercedes is not confirming that, obviously. But those in charge are giving an unusually confident impression,” he added.

One sign that Mercedes is indeed speeding ahead is an argument about the specification of next year’s Pirelli tyres.

Mercedes has been pushing hard for a wider rear tyre, which would better transfer the power and torque of a superior engine to the track.

Ferrari and Renault, on the other hand, are reportedly happy with the narrower status-quo. (GMM)

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... e_in_2014/

[diego1960]

100HP more? I don't find this realistic, I don't know about you. It's not like Renault or Ferrari are amateurs in the engine department. If the HP difference was about 10-15HP I might have thought it as probable.

From what we know though, It's not so much about power as it is about the torque, level of fuel needed to complete a race etc. Mercedes' V8 was pretty bad at this from what we hear. The question is, can they do something better with the new engine?

[GitanesBlondes]

100HP more? I don't find this realistic, I don't know about you. It's not like Renault or Ferrari are amateurs in the engine department. If the HP difference was about 10-15HP I might have thought it as probable.

From what we know though, It's not so much about power as it is about the torque, level of fuel needed to complete a race etc. Mercedes' V8 was pretty bad at this from what we hear. The question is, can they do something better with the new engine?

Unless a loophole in the rules has already been found?

[marcush.]

well that would be not a loophole but a barndoor ?!?
I don´t think Daimler is anywhere as far in front in terms of technology ...so it would be something rather controversial again ..a la double deck difussers .
FIA are consistant in being very selective on who is allowed to push the boundaries in terms of rule interpretation so it well
could be there is something others have ruled out on grounds of regs but MERC is pursuing it anyways..?

[Tim.Wright]

I'm not an engine man but a 100hp difference with a fuel flow regulated engine seems very unlikely. To me it seems someone is comparing power numbers that they have heard without worrying about what condition those power numbers were made in. Its quite likely the Mercedes number may have been with ERS and the others without, but a journalist is not interested in stupid details like that...

Anyway, you are never going to get meaningful comparison figures on these engines even if you have a good relationship with the developers. Reason being is that every manufacturer will have their own method of quantifying engine power (e.g. which ERS configuration, fuel mapping etc). Plus a well known fact is that power readings differ from dyno to dyno. Add to that the fact that the engine designs are still in a state of flux...

Add up all of these uncertainties and you will probably see that any comparison at this stage is pretty meaningless...

[GitanesBlondes]

well that would be not a loophole but a barndoor ?!?
I don´t think Daimler is anywhere as far in front in terms of technology ...so it would be something rather controversial again ..a la double deck difussers .
FIA are consistant in being very selective on who is allowed to push the boundaries in terms of rule interpretation so it well
could be there is something others have ruled out on grounds of regs but MERC is pursuing it anyways..?

Well this would definitely begin to explain where the desire for wider rear tires comes from.

Not that I mind as I'd like to see wider tires on the rear again.

Any ideas on what it could possibly be? Or maybe they are just putting a rumor out there ala Ferrari claiming they had more power than it really did so who was it, Climax shelved their engine in the 50s?

[SectorOne]

I think the 100 figure is made up by the news site. There´s no mention of any 100hp advantage in the actual quotes.
But since Mercedes are the only team that has publicly said they want wider rears you can´t but wonder why...

Maybe it´s horses...maybe it´s torque. We´ve seen even with the V8 Mercedes powered cars have had trouble with it´s extra torque.

[WhiteBlue]

I think the 100 figure is made up by the news site. There´s no mention of any 100hp advantage in the actual quotes.

That is not correct. The original quote is from Tobias Gruner of AMuS and he explicitly mentioned the 100 hp figure. You can expect people at that publication to know what they are talking about. It is the biggest motoring publication in Europe.

[marcush.]

I'm not an engine man but a 100hp difference with a fuel flow regulated engine seems very unlikely. To me it seems someone is comparing power numbers that they have heard without worrying about what condition those power numbers were made in. Its quite likely the Mercedes number may have been with ERS and the others without, but a journalist is not interested in stupid details like that...

Anyway, you are never going to get meaningful comparison figures on these engines even if you have a good relationship with the developers. Reason being is that every manufacturer will have their own method of quantifying engine power (e.g. which ERS configuration, fuel mapping etc). Plus a well known fact is that power readings differ from dyno to dyno. Add to that the fact that the engine designs are still in a state of flux...

Add up all of these uncertainties and you will probably see that any comparison at this stage is pretty meaningless...

I´d think this is more than likely .No two dynos are the same and especially in case of turbocharging but with energy recovery there is even more grey area on boundary conditions which may yield famous numbers but bear no relevance to what actually may be usuable in a racing scenario.

A slump of extra rubber can´t be wrong so welcome back wide rears...

[Anon123]

On a few occasions James Allen has said in response to people on his website that people in the paddock seem to think the Mercedes unit will be the strongest next year because customer teams have data from the various manufacturers and have made comparisons.

[raymondu999]

I find it hard to believe that the customer teams will divulge such information. I can already imagine a few that wouldn't have been able to try - FIndia, Merc, McLaren, Ferrari, Sauber, Marussia, Toro Rosso, Red Bull... leaving exactly Caterham, Lotus and Williams as the only possibilities.

[Chuckjr]

A 100 hp advantage?? Come on people.

This is a technical site and is not a place which gets caught up in bs antics like that. Lets take off the rose tinted sunglasses and try to exist in reality.

Reading the thread here re: the new engine regs will make it painfully clear that a 100hp advantage at this stage in the game is a pathetic attempt to excite Merc sponcers and Hamilton slurpers. There simply is not enough room in the regs to find such an advantage.

[marcush.]

The difference could only be accounted towards the supercharging and energy recovery systems ,as the engine is basically spec and with less cubicinches and less cylinders my assumption is you will have a even harder time to make a measurable difference on the engine side.
So the mentioned 100 extra horses would be even more impressive.....it´s BS comparing apples with nuts or something.

[FoxHound]

Let's forget about this fantasy 100hp advantage.

The idea that this could even be remotely true would suggest the "source" knew intimately well the output figures for Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes.
This would be akin in F1 circles to knowing the nuclear codes for Russia, China and the US.
It's hyperbole.

And it would not surprise me in the slightest that the perpetrators behind the story are the ones with the most to lose in this new era, the ones that are dominating now.

[lio007]

And it would not surprise me in the slightest that the perpetrators behind the story are the ones with the most to lose in this new era, the ones that are dominating now.

Could you please be a little bit more specific...who do you mean are this prepetrators?