2014 Engine yin yang

[Richard]

This may be too simplistic, but surely engine manufacturers who are trying to get customer teams have to reveal their engines spec to entice them to sign up to their engine? You wouldn't expect any team to sign on the dotted line without having solid information to base their decision on.

Caterham, Sauber and and Marussia have not confirmed their supplier but will have to accept what they are offered based commercial/support terms. Perhaps Lotus have some scope to demand data, but they'd probably stick with Renault.

The others are committed to long term deals (most signed before the engine data was known), they'll have to accept what they get.

All teams are in "pig in a poke" territory.

I guess the only people in the know will be the engine designers and transmission designers. I imagine only a handful of people in each team know the input data at the front of the gearbox, everyone downstream only knows the box output. The people who do know will be the senior folk who can be trusted to keep secrets ... or trusted to be good at misinformation.

So when people within a team don't know the data, it's unlikely anyone has accurate data comparing suppliers.

[wuzak]

Caterham, Sauber and and Marussia have not confirmed their supplier but will have to accept what they are offered based commercial/support terms. Perhaps Lotus have some scope to demand data, but they'd probably stick with Renault.

Caterham will be with Renault. They have a commercial partnership for sports cars, so it would be dumb to not have Renault in F1.

Marussia and Sauber are both committed to Ferrari.

[GitanesBlondes]

I still believe that MHPE have found a way to by-pass the fuel-flow limit, can't be any other way if the have found 100 xtra Hp!

If this is the case, I can't wait to see Australia when Charlie Whiting is standing there scratching his head unsure of what decision to make. I suspect he'll hit the speed dial to see what Bernie wants. It must kill Norbert he can't be a part of this whole thing?

It has nothing to do with Charlie Whiting.

It will be down to the scrutineers and the stewards.

Bear in mind that if they get caught cheating on such an item they could face a very sever punishment. Toyota (TTE) built a bypass into their turbo intake, getting around the air flow restrictions in place at the time. Their reward, when caught, was a couple of years holiday from the sport.

Well what I've learned (if anything) over the years is that when it comes to ambiguous wording within the rule books, legality is never quite assured till those running things weigh the pros and cons of allowing various things.

xpensive's avatar reminds me of something John Barnard said recently - technical design is pretty much nothing what it was in his day because it mostly consists of lawyers pouring through the rule book to try and find a loophole. They are too restrictive now to allow any real design approach. Meaningful performance gains all come by way of loopholes. If Mercedes has found some sort of power advantage even if not 100HP, it's not going to have been achieved by way of old-fashioned design. A pity.

[dren]

I'm guessing Honda will have more than one team to supply in 2015. Mclaren the works team and at least a second.

[gray41]

Who would you put money on become the second Honda team?

[xpensive]

These kind of rules, such as mass-flow metering, are simply way too tempting to circumvent, quarter of a second of full
fuel-flow after lift-off, 9cc, will be enough to give a 75 Hp boost for two seconds when you are back on the throttle again.

Think about it.

[dren]

These kind of rules, such as mass-flow metering, are simply way too tempting to circumvent, quarter of a second of full
fuel-flow after lift-off, 9cc, will be enough to give a 75 Hp boost for two seconds when you are back on the throttle again.

Think about it.

Oh yes. And when I started reading the engine thread months ago that was one of the first topics brought up

[gary123]

I'm guessing Honda will have more than one team to supply in 2015. Mclaren the works team and at least a second.

In 2015 in going to be just the Mclaren, i read it a few months ago.

[dren]

Who would you put money on become the second Honda team?

I'm sure most if not all of the currently undecided teams look at Honda as an option. I think I read an article where Honda stated they were interested in supplying more than just one team...but don't hold me to that. Sauber would be my pick. If the rumors of how much more the Renault is, it will certainly come down to cost for the cash strapped teams. I don't know how closely Lotus is still in with Renault...maybe them?

[dren]

I'm guessing Honda will have more than one team to supply in 2015. Mclaren the works team and at least a second.

In 2015 in going to be just the Mclaren, i read it a few months ago.

Ahh ok, perhaps another year down the road or two?

[xpensive]

These kind of rules, such as mass-flow metering, are simply way too tempting to circumvent, quarter of a second of full
fuel-flow after lift-off, 9cc, will be enough to give a 75 Hp boost for two seconds when you are back on the throttle again.

Think about it.

Oh yes. And when I started reading the engine thread months ago that was one of the first topics brought up

I doubt it, that therad has always been swamped with stoichiometric hocus-pocus and very little real-world figures.

[gary123]

I'm guessing Honda will have more than one team to supply in 2015. Mclaren the works team and at least a second.

In 2015 in going to be just the Mclaren, i read it a few months ago.

Ahh ok, perhaps another year down the road or two?

For 2015 just Mclaren. For 2016 i dont know nothing because the article didnt mention nothing but like you said there could be the Lotus leaving Reanult.

[WhiteBlue]

This may be too simplistic, but surely engine manufacturers who are trying to get customer teams have to reveal their engines spec to entice them to sign up to their engine? You wouldn't expect any team to sign on the dotted line without having solid information to base their decision on.

Caterham, Sauber and and Marussia have not confirmed their supplier but will have to accept what they are offered based commercial/support terms. Perhaps Lotus have some scope to demand data, but they'd probably stick with Renault.

The others are committed to long term deals (most signed before the engine data was known), they'll have to accept what they get.

All teams are in "pig in a poke" territory.

I guess the only people in the know will be the engine designers and transmission designers. I imagine only a handful of people in each team know the input data at the front of the gearbox, everyone downstream only knows the box output. The people who do know will be the senior folk who can be trusted to keep secrets ... or trusted to be good at misinformation.

So when people within a team don't know the data, it's unlikely anyone has accurate data comparing suppliers.

What a lovely speculation, worthy of the yin yang thread!

[marcush.]

injectors have a certain flow and can only be opened 100%max for a defined time span (second ,millisecond or whatever) as these items are precisely defined by your engine mapping -no need to actually sense the flow to be in position to make quite precise consumption calcs from information readily available...
I ´d think you could fool around with pressure readings and offsets to make the ruleenforcers think you do something else but that is going a bit far for a manufacturer already,unless you could mask it as an error ...

I think it makes more sense trying to reduce frictional losses?

[langwadt]

injectors have a certain flow and can only be opened 100%max for a defined time span (second ,millisecond or whatever) as these items are precisely defined by your engine mapping -no need to actually sense the flow to be in position to make quite precise consumption calcs from information readily available...
I ´d think you could fool around with pressure readings and offsets to make the ruleenforcers think you do something else but that is going a bit far for a manufacturer already,unless you could mask it as an error ...

I think it makes more sense trying to reduce frictional losses?

yeh, the rules says there with be logging of pressure, temperature, etc. at the injectors with FIA ecu and injectors from a list of approved parts, cheating with be almost if not impossible