Thermoplastic floors on the RB9.

[flynfrog]

yes we know the difference. But even thermosets have a thermoplastic region of there rheology curve. But I digress if your tabloid sources says so it must be true. I'm sure they didn't switch to a higher temperature matl. because the BMI was losing to much of its properties and deforming. Never mind that there is no reason you would want that area to deform.

[rjsa]

Yeah right

Almost everything that is injection moulded is made of thermoplastic. The keyboard you are typing in, the case of your phone, the buckets you carry water in.

The epoxy resins used on the carbon fiber parts on the other hand are not, those are thermosetting resins, and the result of heating is irreversible.

You are talking about thermosetting materials. Link
Thermoplastics are completely different
Read this Link
Then you know the difference between those materials.

Don't be deffensive. Read what I've written.

[flynfrog]

I've done a lot of research before posting this.

Do a little more

That is the reason that in Germany a part of the floor of the Red Bull was not made of carbon fiber, but made from a thermoplastic material

I don't think you understand that the BMI resin used to build most the area around the floor is a thermoplastic once you get it over its Tg they changed to a higher temp matl. in germany. How will the floor return to the static position after it cools. If it is infact a thermoplastic meant to deform in that area what puts it back into place.

You don't read.

By adding fiber-optic wires to strengthen in the distortion you would be able to integrate programming without anyone touching it.

The fiber optic wires will make the floor return to it's original form.
This is a known method and it used in lighter airplanes as well.

Read this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplastic
it perfectly explaines how a thermoplastic works. When you add some strengthening wires in it it will once cooled return to it's previous state

Fiber optics are not strong at all they are incredibly fragile. Care to try again? I can assure you there are no Light aircraft with fiberoptics in the laminate structure. If you heat a thermoplastic up to its forming temperature then apply a force to form it, It will not return to its original position once cooled.

[Jersey Tom]

Had a long reply.. but suffice to say.. I don't see how it could be pulled off.

By the way.. fiber optics?? In a composite? You mean.. fiberglass?

[flynfrog]

Had a long reply.. but suffice to say.. I don't see how it could be pulled off.

By the way.. fiber optics?? In a composite? You mean.. fiberglass?

he is referring to an old paper on putting fiber optics in a laminate as a damage indicator. IE the laminate would be damaged and break the fiber optic running though it a computer could check the fiber runs for damage. There was talk of using heated wires to bring the resin back up to TG to try to repair the them. He is getting things confused.

[flynfrog]

http://www.4fos.com/news/011713.html

here is one of the white papers.

[WhiteBlue]

I must say it sounds far fetched. Thermoplastics with a shape memory effect are usually subject to hysteresis. They will not cycle through the different shapes indefinitely and repeatedly. What I know is that you basically have frozen stresses in the material which relax when you heat it up again. How much they reverse to the original shape when cooled again is debatable and particularly how often they would do that. I reckon that you will loose quite a bit of deformation for every cycle you do with the material, if you even get it to go back close to the original shape at all. I do not think the concept is good enough to comply with F1 regulations for dimensional accuracy. I'll say I will believe this when some more serious sources give confirmation.

[autogyro]

It might be of interest, I am at present looking for a method to cut out small shapes in thin thermoplastic and at the same time heat and bend these shapes into a 'cup' shape.
Any ideas?
The cut outs average 20mm by 10mm and are to be cut from plastic disks.
I am looking into a heated hand operated press tool at present.

[WhiteBlue]

The process is called thermoforming. You do not usually cut and form but form and cut. Yoghurt cups and airline cups margarine and ice cream tubs are all made with the process. You basically take a film or sheet and heat it up with an infra red heater. Then you form it with a usually one sided mould tool and use air pressure or suction to get a good contact with the mould tool. The tool is cooled and once the thermoplastic film or sheet is hard you can de mould it and cut it out with very simple tools or by hand. Small moulding shops will also give you quotations for small jobs. You probably want to leave it to professionals to make the mould and the mouldings unless you do not rate your own time high.

[xpensive]

The term "thermoplastic" is as informative as "metal", most plastics belong there, anything from stockings to frying pans.

[flynfrog]

It might be of interest, I am at present looking for a method to cut out small shapes in thin thermoplastic and at the same time heat and bend these shapes into a 'cup' shape.
Any ideas?
The cut outs average 20mm by 10mm and are to be cut from plastic disks.
I am looking into a heated hand operated press tool at present.

I was going to suggest a heated die press but you may need a freeze off cycle in there to get them to hold shape.

[bigpat]

Some still think that F1 cars are space craft....

Remember that if the car gets scrutineered while its still hot, it could easily fail static measurement, and deflection tests.

Also remember that most bodywork (especially underneath in a low pressure area) is pretty well secured so that it DOESN'T move. Can't see teams putting heaters on the cars, which would be illegal, as it purpose is to actively alter the aerodynamics while in motion....

[riff_raff]

You are talking about thermosetting materials. Link
Thermoplastics are completely different
Read this Link
Then you know the difference between those materials.

Good comment. There is a big difference between thermosetting resins and thermoplastic resins. The epoxy resins commonly used in composite laminates are thermosetting. And while there are some methods of using thermoplastic resins (such as polyamides/polyimides) in composite laminate construction, it is still fairly difficult to do without specialized equipment such as CNC cure-in-place tape-laying machines.

And as others noted, both thermoplastic and thermosetting materials will suffer from permanent creep deformation once their Tg is exceeded under sustained load. The strength and stiffness in a composite laminate is provided by the fiber content. The resin matrix only really serves to keep the fibers in place.

[atanatizante]

... The epoxy resins commonly used in composite laminates are thermosetting. And while there are some methods of using thermoplastic resins (such as polyamides/polyimides) in composite laminate construction, it is still fairly difficult to do without specialized equipment such as CNC cure-in-place tape-laying machines.

Indeed, with this method you can`t build a carbon fiber piece with a complicated shape just only plain one such as T-tray ...

... The strength and stiffness in a composite laminate is provided by the fiber content. The resin matrix only really serves to keep the fibers in place.

That statement is true but in case of using an special thermoplastic resin formula developed in house you could end with a carbon fiber structure with a thermoplastic behavior within a few mm range contraction ...
This deformation is just enough in order to build a car with lower FW and higher rake and gain 5 to 7 tenths and this could back up Gary Anderson's theory in his BBC article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24659085
Now what I wanna figure out is where the heat needed to deform the T-tray comes from?
KERS battery maybe? http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... /1111.html

[McMrocks]

There are a few question i'd like to ask the FiA:

1. Did they heat up the whole floor/t-tray? In the race only the lower area which touches the ground heats up. If this lower area expands and the upper doesn't the floor will bend upwards

2. Did they just look if the floor moves if they heat them up? Or did they also make a deflection test?


And another question to you guys in this forum: Is the RB floor made of carbon fibre?

http://formula1.com/wi/enlarge/sutton/2 ... ind925.jpg
In this picture it looks like it is made of some metallic material. Or at least the holes/area around the holes are made of this material. Pretty unusual since it would be easier to make a simple carbon fibre floor like "all" other parts of the car. Another thing is that the leading edge of the skid block is covered with some metallic material which avoids too much wear.
You could also argue that the t-tray isn't as thin as the one from other teams, but this could also be for aerodynamic reasons.

http://img2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Red ... 731941.jpg
the connection between floor and chassis ( the bar from the front of the floor to the tube) is not very aerodynamicaly shaped. I can't imagine RB sacrifices this for no good reason. And it could be also made off carbon fibre but it isn't


Call me a nutter but there is something going on