2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Billzilla wrote:
dren wrote:Looking at Wikipedia, the Renault EF15 Type-B in 1986 was the first F1 engine to use the pneumatic springs. It revved up to 12.5k rpms. Although motorcycle crotch rockets use double springs up to 13k and more.
FWIW the Indycar engines use conventional (but extremely good quality) coil steel valve springs and run them to 16,000 rpm.
I was thinking about the use of coil springs in the new V6 F1 engines and dug this thread up because of it.
I suspect that if the F1 engineers can get steel springs working at the revs and cam profiles the V6 engines use, it'll be a useful weight saving as they don't have to carry all the pneumatic gear.
Not sure that there would be much, if any, weight savings.

What would constitute "all that pneumatic gear"?

Remember that they have been using pneumaic valves since the mid '80s, where peak revs were lower and it was still judged better to have pneumatic valve springs.

wuzak
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Reca wrote:During the pre-gp grid walk the Italian tv technical commentator ing.Giancarlo Bruno, has shown the Magneti Marelli MGU-H for 2014 (presumably an early development version):
http://i.imgur.com/8pu9jDa.jpg
Magneti Marelli supply Ferrari, obviously, but they have also supplied Renault in recent years (alternators and such).

Anyone know if Renault are using MM KERS now, and if they will use MM MGUs from next year?

Billzilla
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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wuzak wrote:
Billzilla wrote:
dren wrote:Looking at Wikipedia, the Renault EF15 Type-B in 1986 was the first F1 engine to use the pneumatic springs. It revved up to 12.5k rpms. Although motorcycle crotch rockets use double springs up to 13k and more.
FWIW the Indycar engines use conventional (but extremely good quality) coil steel valve springs and run them to 16,000 rpm.
I was thinking about the use of coil springs in the new V6 F1 engines and dug this thread up because of it.
I suspect that if the F1 engineers can get steel springs working at the revs and cam profiles the V6 engines use, it'll be a useful weight saving as they don't have to carry all the pneumatic gear.
Not sure that there would be much, if any, weight savings.

What would constitute "all that pneumatic gear"?

Remember that they have been using pneumaic valves since the mid '80s, where peak revs were lower and it was still judged better to have pneumatic valve springs.
I could be wrong but I assume there's either a pump to pressurise the system somewhere and/or a pressure reservoir and associated plumbing to pressurise the pneumatic springs. None of that is needed with steel springs.
If the Indycars were allowed to use pneumatic springs, would they? As I said they run 16,000 rpm with conventional steel coil springs. That wasn't possible a few years ago but the improvement in materials technology has now allowed for it.

wuzak
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autogyro wrote:Hmm, very clever technology if it is that light.
I am not happy with an unarmoured unit that will presumably sit on top of the powertrain rotating at such hugely high revs.
I hope the FIA is considering a kevlar blanket in the engine cover before any spectators get shot with shrapnel.
Do you have any reason to suspect that the rotor will be anywhere near its material limits that would allow it to fail in such a way?

It is quite a small diameter.

wuzak
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Billzilla wrote:I could be wrong but I assume there's either a pump to pressurise the system somewhere and/or a pressure reservoir and associated plumbing to pressurise the pneumatic springs. None of that is needed with steel springs.
If the Indycars were allowed to use pneumatic springs, would they? As I said they run 16,000 rpm with conventional steel coil springs. That wasn't possible a few years ago but the improvement in materials technology has now allowed for it.
I don't think that there is a pump. Just a reservoir/accumulator.

The plumbing won't be heavy, as the pressure isn't fantastically high (often pneumatics will be plumbed with plastic hose).

If Indycars were allowed to use pneumatic valve springs I'm sure it would at least be considered. Cost, not weight, would be the thing that knocks it back.

wuzak
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Image

This looks like a development unit.

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WhiteBlue
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ringo wrote:89kW...
So clearly it can't harvest most of the thermal energy from the exhaust gas.
I believe it may harvest more than stated by the Italian guy presenting it
That is a lot more than I was expecting. If the MGUH exceed 50 kW we will have a very powerful power unit. Much more than we thought so far.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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ringo
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Haha, ok, well i was assuming 120kW as the best case.
So i'm still very skeptical on the ICE engine power some of us think these cars will have.
89kW is ok, so maybe we can check back on our power estimates.
For Sure!!

Billzilla
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wuzak wrote:
Billzilla wrote:I could be wrong but I assume there's either a pump to pressurise the system somewhere and/or a pressure reservoir and associated plumbing to pressurise the pneumatic springs. None of that is needed with steel springs.
If the Indycars were allowed to use pneumatic springs, would they? As I said they run 16,000 rpm with conventional steel coil springs. That wasn't possible a few years ago but the improvement in materials technology has now allowed for it.
I don't think that there is a pump. Just a reservoir/accumulator.

The plumbing won't be heavy, as the pressure isn't fantastically high (often pneumatics will be plumbed with plastic hose).

If Indycars were allowed to use pneumatic valve springs I'm sure it would at least be considered. Cost, not weight, would be the thing that knocks it back.
Thanks.
Also, thinking back, it's pretty rare to see valve gear failure in either class.

xpensive
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WhiteBlue wrote:
ringo wrote:89kW...
So clearly it can't harvest most of the thermal energy from the exhaust gas.
I believe it may harvest more than stated by the Italian guy presenting it
That is a lot more than I was expecting. If the MGUH exceed 50 kW we will have a very powerful power unit. Much more than we thought so far.
No "we" won't, the maximum propulsion-power will still be no more that the ICE + the MGU-K, about 750-780 Hp.

Imagine that the forum's stalwart, or rather owner, needs to be reminded about this fact?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Reca
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Obviously peak power can't exceed max ICE (whatever it is) + 120kW, what I think WB is hinting at (I hope...) is that, the more power it's possible to extract via turbine and then MGUH, the more power is available as average for the lap.

If for instance the MGUH can only provide a recovery rate just enough to "fill" the 4MJ the MGUK can take every lap from ES, then the powertrain will provide max ICE + 120kW for 33s or so of acceleration (conveniently distributed out of corners and up to a certain speed/gear) while for rest of lap power will basically come from ICE alone without contribution from MGUK.
If MGUH on the contrary can provide more, exceeding easily the 4MJ of total recovery per lap, then that's all extra power going directly from MGUH to MGUK and available outside of the "normal" 33s that can be filled by the original 4MJ.

Notice, I simplified the strategy to illustrate the basic concept, in reality it's likely that even just the 4MJ will be split, most to be used at full 120kW rate in acceleration out of corners till a given speed, and part used, at reduced rate, in the high speed range (so to afford using more drag, hence hopefully downforce, while still reaching a convenient peak speed).
Still these are minor details of optimization, also based on different tracks' layout and characteristics, that teams will certainly take plenty of care of but that don't change the fundamental reasoning, the more power the MGUH produces, the more extra power is available for all the (many) parts of the lap where the MGUK can't normally work at full 120kW due to lack of energy.

So albeit the limitation on peak power is insurmountable, in order to have that peak available for the whole full throttle time, we are talking about 6+ MJ of energy that needs to be recovered every lap (without considering the energy the MGUH itself will use to spin up the turbo assembly), braking recovery only gives 2 at best (and more often than not less as I've shown before), the 4+ remaining have to come from MGUH (=from exhaust gasses via turbine) so there's plenty of margin of improvement.
The more power you can get from that, the closer you get to that ideal maximum amount which is to have max ICE + 120kW for the whole full throttle time.
ringo wrote: 89kW is ok, so maybe we can check back on our power estimates.
I know I'm demanding a giant mental effort here, but do you think we can safely approximate that to 90kW? ;-)
Actually 90 kW is likely the figure Bruno was given, he then just converted it to hp, rounding to next "nice" integer, for the general audience.

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WhiteBlue
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If I assume for the moment that 120 hp were actually used in generator mode then I would still have to multiply by 0.9 to arrive at the power that is going to be present at the crank shaft. That would be 108 hp. Added to 650 maximum estimated by Marmorini I get 758 bhp for the power unit without any battery support. Obviously with battery support it would be 810 bhp. Nice to have if true. BTE for the power unit without battery support would be about 45%. Truly impressive if the report is correct.

I still feel that it would point to a massive recovery from the turbine to have 89 kW above the compressor demand on full song. What was the estimate for the compressor btw?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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dren
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It was TC that stated earlier that you start to transfer crank power to MGUH power at roughly 1:1 with the benefit of better efficiency which equates to more power since it's fuel limited racing. Thus the ICE power may be lower than the 650hp with the MGUH generating 120hp.

The compounding is only "free" up to 7% or something like that if I remember correctly. Surely it may be a bit higher now when compared to the compounded airplane engines?
So around 75hp is being moved from the crank to the MGUH if 7% is used above. You're looking at around 700hp with whatever efficiency gains from the 75hp transfer to be added on top. Then another 40hp or so from ERS.
So maybe around 750hp total? Of course some fancy fuel may kick that up a bit.

I'm with wuzak, I don't expect the teams to use the max battery package during the race. They are stuck with at least 20kg of ES though.
Honda!

xpensive
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WhiteBlue wrote:If I assume for the moment that 120 hp were actually used in generator mode then I would still have to multiply by 0.9 to arrive at the power that is going to be present at the crank shaft. That would be 108 hp. Added to 650 maximum estimated by Marmorini I get 758 bhp for the power unit without any battery support. Obviously with battery support it would be 810 bhp.
...
What is it you don't understand here, the MGU-K has a max power of 160 Hp and that's all there is to it.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

wuzak
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xpensive wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:If I assume for the moment that 120 hp were actually used in generator mode then I would still have to multiply by 0.9 to arrive at the power that is going to be present at the crank shaft. That would be 108 hp. Added to 650 maximum estimated by Marmorini I get 758 bhp for the power unit without any battery support. Obviously with battery support it would be 810 bhp.
...
What is it you don't understand here, the MGU-K has a max power of 160 Hp and that's all there is to it.
X, 650hp +160hp = 810hp as WB stated.

Also, IIRC, 650hp was the upper end of Marmorini's estimate.

The ICE is probably going to be in the 600-650hp region, for a total of 760-810hp. But we're really only guessing at this point.

Not sure why WB uses a 0.9 factor? Regs state a factor of 0.95 will be used, and MGU to MGU transfers will be that, at least.