Silly Season 2013/14

[godlameroso]

Yes it appears they paid Raikkonen more than they could afford. The blame for that lies with Lotus not Raikkonen.

I'm not sure how their best performance for many years can be called a lack of results???

Best in years doesn't mean best possible, it depends on your reference point, in 2012 and especially in 2013 car was so good that much better results were possible....

..... To put it simply they bet everything in the last two seasons in a row on Raikkonen's championship challenge and it didn't work, in 2013 car was good enough.

edited for brevity

What makes you think the 2013 Lotus car is good enough? They had a lucky break in the beginning of the season because of the ridiculous tires, but beyond that the car has been average at best.

So average in China, Bahrain, Germany, and Hungary....yep

[munudeges]

Well, I don't see any counterarguments anywhere and things went awfully quiet when the subject of Ricciardo's points haul over the past two seasons was brought up........ There never is any proof when people don't like what's in front of them.

[djos]

Well, I don't see any counterarguments anywhere and things went awfully quiet when the subject of Ricciardo's points haul over the past two seasons was brought up........ There never is any proof when people don't like what's in front of them.

As has been pointed out to you multiple times, when you work out where both RIC and JEV would be on points for last year if they had both finished were they where before mechanical dramas and crashes, RIC would have finished with more points. RIC also dominated qualifying by a country mile!

This year RIC is now in front on points and well clear in qualifying again and is continuing to improve as a race driver.

Fact is blind Freddy can see RIC has what it takes to be a WDC contender, he has the raw speed to get to the pointy of the grid and his race craft continues to develop!

Lets not forget SEB was pretty raw in his first year at RBR with many silly mistakes leading to DNF's etc (see the Button crash and his Turkey crash with Webber).

[zeph]

Best in years doesn't mean best possible, it depends on your reference point, in 2012 and especially in 2013 car was so good that much better results were possible....

..... To put it simply they bet everything in the last two seasons in a row on Raikkonen's championship challenge and it didn't work, in 2013 car was good enough.

edited for brevity

What makes you think the 2013 Lotus car is good enough? They had a lucky break in the beginning of the season because of the ridiculous tires, but beyond that the car has been average at best.

So average in China, Bahrain, Germany, and Hungary....yep

Very well, then. So do you agree with iotar's premise that the car is good enough, and Raikkonen is underperforming?

I'll say that Germany was really good, indeed. On the whole, though, my view is that their 4th position in the WCC reflects how good they are, realistically.

[aussiegman]

Well, I don't see any counterarguments anywhere and things went awfully quiet when the subject of Ricciardo's points haul over the past two seasons was brought up........ There never is any proof when people don't like what's in front of them.

Yawn, same garbage from you.

You are yet to provide substantiated facts and the simple point that Ricciardo has the seat shows you were wrong.

As for your allegation of no proof, a complete table was set down for your perusal with indisputable facts regarding the relative performances of DR and JEV over the two seasons. This combined with Ricciadro sitting in the set is proof enough so thats two strikes for you.

Now he is ahead of JEV in the championship too, so that's three strikes.

Put simply you choose to ignore the facts simply because you didn't like the results.

As for going "quite", if that was pointed in my direction, my work requires I travel (a lot) and conversing with you is futile as you refuse to listen to anything but your own voice.

I have nothing more to say to you, it's a waste of time, we'll never agree. So talk yourself hoarse, type, trawl and/or troll I care not.

[godlameroso]

With cars being so close in performance this year, the differences are highlighted by the main features of each circuit layout and how each driver deals with those circumstances. I think the car is good in general, and great in certain circumstances(ie long sweeping corners). I think Raikkonen has performed to the level of his ability. Yes he's a good driver but he's no Hamilton, or Alonso, remember Massa beat Raikkonen both in 08 and in 09. Grosjean isn't as consistent as Raikkonen but ultimately I think he has more speed than the Fin, and it hasn't materialized because of team orders. Likewise at Ferrari, I think Massa is as fast and on occasion faster than Alonso, but not as consistent, again the pace never materializes because of team orders. I think the same thing happens at all the teams that are in the fight for the championship.

[marcush.]

I feel i have to add:
Toro rosso has the habit to promise stability to their drivers only to fire them when it´s too late to find a drive elsewhere..

the Saga surrounding Alguesuari and Buemi was just a total farce ending with Buemi picked as a reserve driver to RedBull after Marko publicly airinf the guy does not have what it takes...

[raymondu999]

Fact is blind Freddy can see RIC has what it takes to be a WDC contender, he has the raw speed to get to the pointy of the grid and his race craft continues to develop!

"Blind Freddy" can see that Ricciardo is a fantastic qualifier. Has Ricciardo shown he can be a WDC? Maybe - but if he can be a WDC, then Vergne probably could be too. It doesn't matter what speed you have if you cannot convert it into points. You say that reliability is the big reason Ricciardo hasn't out scored Vergne. Maybe the reason for the reliability costing him more points is his speed? I remember you saying similar of Vettel in early 2010 - the way he drives is fast, but breaks cars.

At this point - what is clear is he has speed. It is yet unclear whether he can be a WDC contender. I certainly don't think we've been able to see him sustain wdc-contending performance over any stretch. There were times in the past when webber has looked a WDC contender, but it usually lasts for only several races a season, and I think it's fair to say the same of Ricciardo.

We may yet see Ricciardo develop into a Vettel - but on the other hand, we may also yet see him develop as a Webber. And right now - he's looking more like a webber (strong patches, not consistently strong)

[raymondu999]

IMO comeback Raikkonen has been consistently good - but not excellent. His consistency has never been in doubt. Remember 2003 when he was contending for the WDC with only one win? But I have to say - I think there are lots of times this year when a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso in an E21 would have finished ahead

[SectorOne]

As for the driver programme, all it has produced is Vettel and it's likely he would have been in Formula 1 anyway via BMW or another route. Torro Rosso has really been a joke team. Speed, Klien, Bourdais, firing drivers halfway through a season, firing drivers who fell out with Marko. Horner and Newey feel they should be making decisions based on what they feel they need to win, not to justify someone's expensive pet project.

"All it has produced is Vettel"
Yea...just 6 titles came from that. You also seem to expect that drivers like Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen grows on trees.
I can assure you they don´t.

As far as firing Speed, Klien, Bourdais halfway, honestly they should have fired them on the spot.
Bourdais was the only real gem of the above, but even he showed no real improvements.
If they fell out with Marko....let me guess, Algi did not let Vettel past, hence he got fired.....but....so was Buemi so maybe that´s more BS made up.

Horner and Newey feel they should be making decisions based on what they feel they need to win, not to justify someone's expensive pet project.

Newsflash: that´s exactly what they are doing.
Getting rid of people until one guy comes along they feel has the speed needed to race at the top against the best in the world.
Some of your comments just don´t apply to reality.


Edit: Yes Marko loves Vettel. But i can assure you when the next guy comes along and start whopping Vettel left and right, you won´t see Marko beside Vettel, he will jump camp faster then you can say loyalty.
But right now Vettel is whopping people left and right so Marko is there to give 100% support until that stops.

[raymondu999]

In my time following F1, I've never heardof aone yearextension to a contract that ends years away. Vettel did that last year. If he did the 2015 extension in 2014, I wouldn't be suspicious. If he did what Alonso did, and did a multiple-year extension years before expiry I wouldn'tbe surprised either. Kimi's contract ends in 2015 - could itbe that, behind the scenes, Vettel has already signed a 2016 Ferrari deal? So he would have needed a "stopgap" year in 2015 as his RBR contract ran till 2014, and Ferrari needed someone until then too. Hmmm?

[sennafan24]

IMO comeback Raikkonen has been consistently good - but not excellent. His consistency has never been in doubt. Remember 2003 when he was contending for the WDC with only one win? But I have to say - I think there are lots of times this year when a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso in an E21 would have finished ahead

I agree with this.

I still have Kimi's peak years down as 2003-2007 personally, he has been good in 2012/213, but not to the extent he was in his earlier years.

[aral]

could itbe that, behind the scenes, Vettel has already signed a 2016 Ferrari deal?

No driver in their right mind would sign a contract for so far ahead. Who knows what teams will will prevail in 2014 or 2015? Ferrari could mess up their engine etc and be an also ran, RBR could be provided with a lousy engine etc, or Newey could retire.

Maybe there should be a new thread labelled "silly season 2016" ? Why, even Max Chilton might be signing for Ferrari?

[CHT]

In my time following F1, I've never heardof aone yearextension to a contract that ends years away. Vettel did that last year. If he did the 2015 extension in 2014, I wouldn't be suspicious. If he did what Alonso did, and did a multiple-year extension years before expiry I wouldn'tbe surprised either. Kimi's contract ends in 2015 - could itbe that, behind the scenes, Vettel has already signed a 2016 Ferrari deal? So he would have needed a "stopgap" year in 2015 as his RBR contract ran till 2014, and Ferrari needed someone until then too. Hmmm?

There is no reason for Vettel to look that far ahead without having a clue who is going to come top in 2014.

2014 is a very crucial year for drivers looking to sign long term contract, so without knowing where ferrari stand next year there is no reason for Vettel to sign any contract in advance. Vettel drive with ferrari will come, its just a matter of when. But as long as RBR is still the team to beat, then Vettel will jolly well enjoy clocking in the numbers and keep his eye on MS world championship record.

[munudeges]

But I have to say - I think there are lots of times this year when a Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso in an E21 would have finished ahead

Based on what? The car simply doesn't have the downforce. It's only fast in races because of its more even handed tyre use.