RB Traction Control yin yang

[spiritone]

So we seemed to have solved the mystery of red bull's speed. A good diffuser,the right tires and a special coating and you got 2 seconds over the rest of the field. REALLY! I think newey is a little smarter than that. There's no doubt that all those things help but my guess is they have a form of traction control. This is something they have had for awhile and they have perfected it over the years. Their traction off corner is just too good.
I know that tc is illegal but they have found a way around that. How they are doing it, who knows, but i'm sure we on this board are not clever enough to figure it out, especially since the other teams don't seem to have a clue.

[raymondu999]

You realise that traction control doesn't make you go faster right? It just manages wheelspin (and to an extent, helps you manage the rear tyres)

It doesn't give you better traction.

[Shrieker]

It does give you better traction in the sense that the drivers right foot can't find the perfect balance and the resulting wheelspin (or lack of max theoretical pedal pressure that won't cause wheel spin) will almost always end up with less than optimum traction.

In light of that, it actually does make you go faster Especially so on worn tires. But as you say, it helps tire management so they retain their grip, thus more performance can be extracted for a longer period which is tc's best aspect.

It also has to be said a driver not worried about the car's back stepping out can easily go hard on the throttle earlier. A lot of lap time right there.

[raymondu999]

It does give you better traction in the sense that the drivers right foot can't find the perfect balance and the resulting wheelspin (or lack of max theoretical pedal pressure that won't cause wheel spin) will almost always end up with less than optimum traction.

For traction control to react, the wheel must exceed optimum wheel slip - as such traction control always has the car sort of oscillating from just over to just under optimum, which in terms of laptime, is not optimum.

It also has to be said a driver not worried about the car's back stepping out can easily go hard on the throttle earlier. A lot of lap time right there.

Don't forget that because there is no power oversteer - the net result is a car that has on-power understeer.

I think the closest thing to "traction control" that Red Bull has - and what said system more likely is - is in fact their exhaust. When Vettel goes on the power, he gives himself the ability to go even harder on the power, by "manufacturing" more downforce, via a stronger exhaust burst

[miguelalvesreis]

I think the closest thing to "traction control" that Red Bull has - and what said system more likely is - is in fact their exhaust. When Vettel goes on the power, he gives himself the ability to go even harder on the power, by "manufacturing" more downforce, via a stronger exhaust burst

I think you are on the sweet spot. The advantage from RB comes from an exceptionally developed diffuser. With EBD they can (need) to go full throttle sooner and the exhaust gases will create/increase DF wich allow them to have higher speed on the APEX. Even the fact that SV is slower on the entry point seems to corroborate that. They need revs to be on the right range to deploy that effect and, probably have some lag between go full throttle and DF increase.

Going even further, I would say that the main difference between SV and MW comes from the fact that this is a contra-natura way of driving. Probably SV was more fitted to be molded to that kind of behavior since he had lesser "habits". And most probably is a kind of driving that requires some kind of insensitivity from the driver. It's more like driving a simulator. Driver has to believe the car is going to perform in a certain way instead of sensing how the car is performing. Butt not required!

[timbo]

I think the closest thing to "traction control" that Red Bull has - and what said system more likely is - is in fact their exhaust. When Vettel goes on the power, he gives himself the ability to go even harder on the power, by "manufacturing" more downforce, via a stronger exhaust burst

I think you are on the sweet spot. The advantage from RB comes from an exceptionally developed diffuser. With EBD they can (need) to go full throttle sooner and the exhaust gases will create/increase DF wich allow them to have higher speed on the APEX. Even the fact that SV is slower on the entry point seems to corroborate that. They need revs to be on the right range to deploy that effect and, probably have some lag between go full throttle and DF increase.

I, too, think that is the key to their recent performance. More durable tyres help with exploiting the effect too.

Going even further, I would say that the main difference between SV and MW comes from the fact that this is a contra-natura way of driving. Probably SV was more fitted to be molded to that kind of behavior since he had lesser "habits". And most probably is a kind of driving that requires some kind of insensitivity from the driver. It's more like driving a simulator. Driver has to believe the car is going to perform in a certain way instead of sensing how the car is performing. Butt not required!

I would not push it that far, but it is along the lines which I think.
Some drivers seem to adapt to the car in a more consious way. I.e. when Williams fully developed their active ride Mansell was the one who could use it and Patrese lagged, while the year before the pair was matched much closer. Apparently Prost also found it hard to get used to active ride, which didn't provide him enough feedback.

[Shrieker]

For traction control to react, the wheel must exceed optimum wheel slip - as such traction control always has the car sort of oscillating from just over to just under optimum, which in terms of laptime, is not optimum.

I assume this is true, the system makes corrections several times a second. It should be noted this is closer to optimum than any driver can achieve = lap time; lots of it. Maybe with the exception of tires that have done no more than 1-2 laps.

[raymondu999]

I assume this is true, the system makes corrections several times a second. It should be noted this is closer to optimum than any driver can achieve = lap time; lots of it. Maybe with the exception of tires that have done no more than 1-2 laps.

I think you underestimate an F1 driver's right foot. We've rarely seen them spin their cars, or get much wheelspin, which is an indication they don't really go over the limit. But we do get wheelspin at times - which is an indication that they aren't a lot under the limit.

[shelly]

Giancarlo Minardi is quoted by Omnicorse.it and blogf1-it: he says that he suspects that redbull has traction control, only on vettel's car. He basis his statement on:
1) vettel had 2.5 sec per lap advantage, and this kind of performance leap is not possible trough normal engine chassis development
2) vettel was able to accelerate 50mt before any other out of turn 10 in Singapore
3) vettel's car emitted rasping noise

I think that 1) is overestimated: drBeck's intelligentf1 has shown that the real advantage was around 1s - thus overestimate undermines all subsequent statements. As for some items being present just on vettel's car, I think this is palusibel given the current situation with comfortable lead in both championships and WEB on the way out.

On strange noise: I think it is offical that renalut uses 4-cylinder cut, and this is a great way of offsetting the power/exhaust volume relationship (double the volume for the same power), but that it is not traction control.

As others here are saying, I believe that the acceleration of vettel seem to start before because he has more revs for thesame partial power as he's going on 4 cylinders, and thus is producing a big amount of downforce which helps traction.

TC assisted by kers is a rumor floationg around (some link massa's accidents to that) but with no confirm till now - would not give strange noise anyway in my opinion

[wesley123]

Oh yes, what a surprise, an Italian website writes something about an rival of Ferrari. I don't even consider if it is right or not on such articles(no offence towards you Shelly). But I'll shall go in it for this time;

he says that he suspects that redbull has traction control, only on vettel's car.

I fail to see why they would run TC only on Vettel's car and not on Webber's

1) vettel had 2.5 sec per lap advantage, and this kind of performance leap is not possible trough normal engine chassis development

We have seen big gaps very often in F1. Senna/Prost, Schumacher in the Ferrari, Williams in the early 90's, Hamilton was much quicker on a few occasions than the rest of the field(Monaco 2008, for example), it is very much possible that a team were just so much better than others.

2) vettel was able to accelerate 50mt before any other out of turn 10 in Singapore

Setup and a driving style that matches the car.

3) vettel's car emitted rasping noise

I would love to hear that sound, does someone have a link?

I think that 1) is overestimated: drBeck's intelligentf1 has shown that the real advantage was around 1s - thus overestimate undermines all subsequent statements

And a one second performance is just perfectly fine and a team would be able to pull that off. Nothing fancy here.

On strange noise: I think it is offical that renalut uses 4-cylinder cut, and this is a great way of offsetting the power/exhaust volume relationship (double the volume for the same power), but that it is not traction control.

Then I don't see why;
1. Other Renault powered teams do not have the sound
2. Only Vettel has the sound.

On the other hand, let's take a look at this; http://www.f1technical.net/development/187. Torque control, it is more likely that this is used than let the engine switch between 4 and 8 cylinders.


Let's take a step back to 1994, Schumacher and his Benetton won the WDC(maybe a slightly bad example with all the cheating they did lol). Schumachers team mates on the other hand, they were pretty much nowhere. Want to know why? Because the Benetton was designed for Schumacher and his driving style, the others simply couldn't drive the damn thing. What I am saying is; The Red Bull is designed for Vettel, with Vettels driving style in mind. With that, he is just able to extract more from the car, get on the power earlier etc. etc. etc. It also shows why Webber is pretty much nowhere compared to Vettel; different driving styles.

Since 2009 Red Bull has been accused of cheating on a regular basis, yet in all those years nothing has been found, even with more stricter tests they were not found to have anything illegal. To me, this is just another one of those cheating accusations.

[JimClarkFan]

I'm fairly sure traction control does make you faster

[mep]

Let's take a step back to 1994, Schumacher and his Benetton won the WDC(maybe a slightly bad example with all the cheating they did lol). Schumachers team mates on the other hand, they were pretty much nowhere. Want to know why? Because the Benetton was designed for Schumacher and his driving style, the others simply couldn't drive the damn thing. What I am saying is; The Red Bull is designed for Vettel, with Vettels driving style in mind. With that, he is just able to extract more from the car, get on the power earlier etc. etc. etc. It also shows why Webber is pretty much nowhere compared to Vettel; different driving styles.

This is pretty much total bullshit.
We should finally get rid of this rumors that cars are designed for a specific driver so that the other driver can't use it.
A car, tire, etc can have specific characteristics. Some drivers might be able to adapt to them and some might not but this is usually because driver one has more skill than driver two.
What is adapted for the specific driver is the setup of the car but every driver is free to chose his own setup.

[wesley123]

Let's take a step back to 1994, Schumacher and his Benetton won the WDC(maybe a slightly bad example with all the cheating they did lol). Schumachers team mates on the other hand, they were pretty much nowhere. Want to know why? Because the Benetton was designed for Schumacher and his driving style, the others simply couldn't drive the damn thing. What I am saying is; The Red Bull is designed for Vettel, with Vettels driving style in mind. With that, he is just able to extract more from the car, get on the power earlier etc. etc. etc. It also shows why Webber is pretty much nowhere compared to Vettel; different driving styles.

This is pretty much total bullshit.
We should finally get rid of this rumors that cars are designed for a specific driver so that the other driver can't use it.

Really? I have read enough stories about Schumacher's team mates stating that the car was hard to drive, they stated you had no feeling in the car and you would only feel it going when it was too late. The other drivers couldn't handle that, while Schumacher seem to handle it just fine. You could say Schumacher was a thousand fold better than his team mates, but you could also say the car was designed to fit Schumacher better.

And I believe that that too is the case with Vettel. Design it with his driving style in mind and it will suit him so much better than his team mate. Somehow that sounds so much better than a weird TC system that has been hidden for over 3 years(which pretty much is unable to happen since it would show up in scrutineering or telemetry) or that Vettel is a thousandfold better than Webber, with Webber having a huge chance at WDC in 2010. I don't know why, but somehow it seems far more logical that the car suits Vettel better.

A car, tire, etc can have specific characteristics.

Yes indeed, and a car can be designed to suit a driver better. We have had enough stories with reasons by drivers why they don't perform, because it didn't suit their driver style is a common choice. If it can work on one way, it can also work the other way.

[JimClarkFan]

This is pretty much total bullshit.
We should finally get rid of this rumors that cars are designed for a specific driver so that the other driver can't use it.
.

Wrong.
Cars are designed around drivers, the Red Bull is especially suited to Vettel.
Setup fine tunes a car, a driver pairing pushing development.
It is wrong to suggest having a car means another driver can't drive it, that is not Wesley meant, I am sure of it.
But drivers do drive development of a car to their own subjective preferences as a driver.

[SectorOne]

You realise that traction control doesn't make you go faster right? It just manages wheelspin (and to an extent, helps you manage the rear tyres)

It doesn't give you better traction.

Over a race distance it does make you faster. Over a lap it´s possible for a human to beat electronic systems but a human will never be able to match the consistency provided by electronic systems.

Same with ABS. It´s possible to beat it once. But do 100 stops and the ABS system will dominate you.