RB Traction Control yin yang

[flattyre]

I'm fairly sure traction control does make you faster

Just to add to this - if traction control DOESN'T make you faster, then why did they use it when it in qualifying pre-2008?

[iotar__]

Oh yes, what a surprise, an Italian website writes something about an rival of Ferrari. I don't even consider if it is right or not on such articles(no offence towards you Shelly). But I'll shall go in it for this time;

he says that he suspects that redbull has traction control, only on vettel's car.

I fail to see why they would run TC only on Vettel's car and not on Webber's

1) vettel had 2.5 sec per lap advantage, and this kind of performance leap is not possible trough normal engine chassis development

We have seen big gaps very often in F1. Senna/Prost, Schumacher in the Ferrari, Williams in the early 90's, Hamilton was much quicker on a few occasions than the rest of the field(Monaco 2008, for example), it is very much possible that a team were just so much better than others.

2) vettel was able to accelerate 50mt before any other out of turn 10 in Singapore

Setup and a driving style that matches the car.

3) vettel's car emitted rasping noise

I would love to hear that sound, does someone have a link?

I think that 1) is overestimated: drBeck's intelligentf1 has shown that the real advantage was around 1s - thus overestimate undermines all subsequent statements

And a one second performance is just perfectly fine and a team would be able to pull that off. Nothing fancy here.

On strange noise: I think it is offical that renalut uses 4-cylinder cut, and this is a great way of offsetting the power/exhaust volume relationship (double the volume for the same power), but that it is not traction control.

Then I don't see why;
1. Other Renault powered teams do not have the sound
2. Only Vettel has the sound.

On the other hand, let's take a look at this; http://www.f1technical.net/development/187. Torque control, it is more likely that this is used than let the engine switch between 4 and 8 cylinders.


Let's take a step back to 1994, Schumacher and his Benetton won the WDC(maybe a slightly bad example with all the cheating they did lol). Schumachers team mates on the other hand, they were pretty much nowhere. Want to know why? Because the Benetton was designed for Schumacher and his driving style, the others simply couldn't drive the damn thing. What I am saying is; The Red Bull is designed for Vettel, with Vettels driving style in mind. With that, he is just able to extract more from the car, get on the power earlier etc. etc. etc. It also shows why Webber is pretty much nowhere compared to Vettel; different driving styles.

Since 2009 Red Bull has been accused of cheating on a regular basis, yet in all those years nothing has been found, even with more stricter tests they were not found to have anything illegal. To me, this is just another one of those cheating accusations.

I don't know about technical aspects but this part is untrue (I left everything else for context):
"And a one second performance is just perfectly fine and a team would be able to pull that off. Nothing fancy here."

I dare you (examples) and them (RB) to replicate this if it's nothing fancy. It doesn't happen, not only often but basically never, outside of weird cases like Singapore. No, in modern F1 over 1 s difference in race pace (with all other things equal) is not normal at all. It's huge and you would need to bring tyres into equation (oh, no...). We have of course reference points called qualifying, flawed because connected to race through tyres but better than nothing and a team-mate.

I can only think of Valencia 2012 as something comparable [only recent examples, no Schumacher please]. Why weren't they one second in front in Hungary (closest track aerodynamically(?)) or in Germany? Tyres and weather again? I'd wait for Korea and big brains of F1 from other teams to comment, pity because since season is basically over they don't seem to be interested, even for propaganda purposes as something sold to journalists to make some noise about. Trying to replicate like wings in 2010 ?

From one of the posts above:
" As for some items being present just on vettel's car, I think this is palusibel given the current situation with comfortable lead in both championships and WEB on the way out."
What items and how much time gain thanks to them? Not visible?

[JimClarkFan]

I'm fairly sure traction control does make you faster

Just to add to this - if traction control DOESN'T make you faster, then why did they use it when it in qualifying pre-2008?

Yeh the whole notion is nonsense. I'm not going to say that using traction control is always faster (I can see how it might impede if you want to induce oversteer) but the traction control can react better and can driver closer to the limit than you can. There is a reason why it is banned, and it is not simply because of tyre preservation.

Also to add
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjlieAisnDA

Now this is drag racing he is talking about, not F1 admittedly, but traction control does the exact same thing.

[krisfx]

Isn't the rasping noise the Helmholtz chamber on the exhaust banks? The acceleration out of the corners is probably down to the counter intuitive driving style of the exhaust blowing, along with the insane levels of downforce everyone knows the Red Bull produces, in a time when the regulations are extremely tight and regulated I think it'd be incredibly difficult to pull off TC and to not have Webber included, he would definitely whistle blow.

[LionKing]

This is pretty much total bullshit.
We should finally get rid of this rumors that cars are designed for a specific driver so that the other driver can't use it.
.

Wrong.
Cars are designed around drivers, the Red Bull is especially suited to Vettel.
Setup fine tunes a car, a driver pairing pushing development.
It is wrong to suggest having a car means another driver can't drive it, that is not Wesley meant, I am sure of it.
But drivers do drive development of a car to their own subjective preferences as a driver.

Cars are not designed around drivers, the designers design the fastest and best car they can with the given regulations. Otherwise last year RBR would have continued development on the A-spec RBR route (which Vettel even switched to in china GP) but not the B-spec. Also I don't think Ferrari tried to design their 2008 challenger around Massa over someone who they were paying $50 millions a year at all.

The resulting car can suit one driver a bit more, but it is quite possible that the more talented driver is able to extract more as usual. RBR introduced EBD mid 2010. In 2009 Vettel destroyed Webber in quali 15-2. I believe It is also no coincidence that Vettel's Torro Rosso won at Monza in wet conditions not Webber in Red Bull that year.

[SectorOne]

Cars are certainly designed around the driver, literally. The car is designed with Vettel´s size in mind.
Webber has commented on how tight the car is for him and i believe Ricciardo had to do some modifications in the seat area to accommodate his hips.
(i believe he even mentioned he had to do some modifications to the STR when he arrived as well)

[1158]

The biggest reason I don't think RB is using any type of TC is that none of the other teams are complaining about it. Don't you think one of the opposing TP would be on top of it before any one else. Even if a rival team thought there was only a 5% chance RB was using some form of TC I'm pretty sure they would be talking to Charlie ASAP.

Maybe I'm wrong but it sure seems like teams readily complain when something foul is afoot.

[spiritone]

If traction control isn't an advantage why did they ban it? Of course being able to get on the gas sooner and not worry about wheel spin is an advantage. As far as vettel having a better feel for the throttle that would only count if webber had the same system on his car. Yeah they probably have the best diffuser but that doesn't account for the advantage vettel had. Yes vettel is one of the top drivers but not by 32 sec. Why would they give webber the same device since he's leaving the team at the end of the year.

Minardi has been in F1 long enough to know when something is up. I don't think red bull are employing tc in the conventional sense, i think they have come up with some way of replicating the tc effect and perfected it over the last few years. Will the fia find out what they are doing before the end of the year, doubtful? If they found something they would only say it's a grey area and write an amendment just like all the other things they have caught red bull doing. Fia wouldn't want to make this a messy end to the years championship and also make themselves look incompetent. As far as having a championship battle, this year is over.

The big question. Is this something they will be able to deploy next year when traction will be even more important. With some of the aero being taken away anything that will help wheelspin is going to be ultra important.












if tr

[wesley123]

I'm fairly sure traction control does make you faster

Just to add to this - if traction control DOESN'T make you faster, then why did they use it when it in qualifying pre-2008?

afaik they hardly used it in Qualifying, only opting for the lowest settings or even off. If I'm correct Button drove qualifyings without the TC enabled. Why? Because without TC you are quicker. TC basicly limit's acceleration based on that it has to prevent wheelspin.

I dare you (examples) and them (RB) to replicate this if it's nothing fancy. It doesn't happen, not only often but basically never, outside of weird cases like Singapore. No, in modern F1 over 1 s difference in race pace (with all other things equal) is not normal at all. It's huge and you would need to bring tyres into equation (oh, no...). We have of course reference points called qualifying, flawed because connected to race through tyres but better than nothing and a team-mate.

I believe Hamilton did so on a few occasions.In Monaco 2008 and I believe a few others, cannot name then though.

Yes, in recent years it hasn't happened often anymore, partially because of trying to get the field closer together, but since Schumacher+Ferrari we did not have another dream team until now with Red Bull.

This is pretty much total bullshit.
We should finally get rid of this rumors that cars are designed for a specific driver so that the other driver can't use it.
.

Wrong.
Cars are designed around drivers, the Red Bull is especially suited to Vettel.
Setup fine tunes a car, a driver pairing pushing development.
It is wrong to suggest having a car means another driver can't drive it, that is not Wesley meant, I am sure of it.
But drivers do drive development of a car to their own subjective preferences as a driver.

Yeah it was not literally what I meant. Where Schumacher drove in the car 'with ease' all his team mates had troubles to extract the maximum out of the car.

[Shaddock]

The "Why only SV's car has TC" Well Webber is leaving at the end of the season and is known as a straight talker. If I were Horner I wouldn't put something 'semi illegal' on his car for fear he'd spill the beans.

[Harsha]

Looking at the Gap after SC or Looking at the Gap by the finish doesn't mean RBR using any kind of Perfected TC.
After SC went in RBR told SV to push to limit and Merc wasn't to Rosberg. Nico was driving slowly to save his tires and add to that he had Rubber in the Front wing. It was a situation like one was walking and Blocking others to pass him and his Opponent was running as quicker as he can. The Difference can be Seen and the Gap between both will be increased very quickly which is what happened after SC restart.
About the 33 or 32 Second gap between P1 and P2. Vettel was on Unused Super Soft which he saved in Q3 by not running for 2nd time and Alonso was on Medium which he was nursing from Lap 25 or 26. Which means Vettel able to Pull away from Alonso and the same rate as he did to rosberg.
RBR was a Good car which has advantage of 0.5 ot 0.6 over Merc at first stint which is the Only real gap between cars. I really don't think there is any 2.5 sec gap existed. It's just circumstances Created that effect.
About RB's Engine sound i really want to see what was The Difference between RBR of SV and Other cars including Marks.
And About going 50 Mt earlier on throttle I observed that SV was Slow Entry and fast exit may be the cause.

[SectorOne]

I think people have taken the traction control and just ran with it.
To refresh your mind this is what he said.

That sound was similar to the sound made by the engine when the traction control system got into action in the past seasons.

"There are some aspects, Vettel's very neat way of driving, Vettel's speedup 50 m before the other drivers, the abnormal sound of the Renault engine and Vetter's more than 2 sec. advantage over his rivals that make me think and I would like to have some answers.

Not anywhere does he categorically state the Red Bull has traction control.
He has merely looked at a number of factors and is obviously mystified at how everything panned out and would like some answers to it.

The thing that should be discussed here is the abnormal sound of the RBR which he claims only Vettel´s car made at various points in the race. Not if the car has or has not traction control.

[I LOVE F1]

I think that TC may also be on Webber's car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxig8iM7jDU

[flynfrog]

I think that TC may also be on Webber's car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxig8iM7jDU

thats wheel hop there a thread about it somewhere.

[SectorOne]

Calm down however downvoted "I love F1".
He joined today, it´s perfectly logical to assume he´s not aware of the discussions regarding Webber´s wheel hop.
For all he knew he probably thought he was contributing yet is given no chance right of the bat.