RB Traction Control yin yang

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SectorOne
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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edit: nevermind, i just got things completely backwards here...
Last edited by SectorOne on 01 Oct 2013, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.
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The Driver
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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I absolutely agree that Red Bull have found "something" - but that may just be a combination of various smaller pieces working together. I think the KERS theory is good but it sounds so simple that I must assume that every team would be using it.

I just had a look at some live timings of previous races. You were right that Rosberg was not under enormous pressure in Singapore from Alonso at the start as the gap staid constantly above 1 second. However, looking at some other races, Mercedes always seem to be a bit slow when heavy with fuel. So I still don't think that those initial laps are as representative.

aussiegman
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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The Driver wrote:I absolutely agree that Red Bull have found "something" - but that may just be a combination of various smaller pieces working together. I think the KERS theory is good but it sounds so simple that I must assume that every team would be using it.
The KERS system sounds simple, however the devil is in the detail as always. Heat management and getting it to operate/cycle correctly is the hard part. It is something that should be both legal (as the KERS systems are not mandated in design only input/output parameters) and eminently doable.

I honestly think RBR have some form of legal KERS control operating along side a very mature and always improving aero package, including the EBD.
The Driver wrote:I just had a look at some live timings of previous races. You were right that Rosberg was not under enormous pressure in Singapore from Alonso at the start as the gap staid constantly above 1 second. However, looking at some other races, Mercedes always seem to be a bit slow when heavy with fuel. So I still don't think that those initial laps are as representative.
Vettel and his car were just so far removed from the rest of the field including Webber. Watching him live the way it moved and put down the power it looked like a point and shoot affair over the way the others were working in the car. Aside from the sound difference, Vettel just seemed to have such an easy work load in the car every time he went past, he simply had a car underneath hm that was a generation ahead of everyone else.

Webber was much busier behind the wheel while Rosberg, Alonso and Kimi were doing what they usually do, push very hard....
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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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Code: Select all

News mode on
This site has been talking again to Maurizio Bollini, ex-engine senior engineer for Michael Schumacher in his Ferrari days.
In regards to the recent sparks that came out Sebastian Vettel's exhaust, Maurizio shares:
Hi Kiril,

the cylinder cut as power trim to deliver power is allowed form the early release of the standard ECU.

The number of cylinder cutted as well the maximum throttle opening is regulated by FIA.

For example, you can deliver exactly the same torque with 8 cylinder at 20% throttle opening as with 4 cylinders with 40% throttle opening (the exact throttle equivalence is not a matter).

In the second case there will be more exhaust flow giving little more downforce and causing less exhaust flow variation ensuring better car stability on corner exit. Additionally, the torque will be more rough or irregular with the possible advantage to generate more rear tyre grip (this is a similar concept of the rear tyre of the motorcross byke feeded by a single cylinder engine with huge torque irregularity that cause the rear tyre to achieve a good grip on the terrain... One of the reasons because you can't see motorcross bikes with more than one cylinder...).

That could be the origin of the unusual noise. It might be not this case but also consider that running on some kerbs could generate a similar noise.

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turbof1
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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the cylinder cut as power trim to deliver power is allowed form the early release of the standard ECU.
If that is true then we have stop looking in that area for a possible RB advantage; all teams will probably use that.
#AeroFrodo

Tommy Cookers
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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I'm not clear that KV's source is entirely correct (to be yin yang, why would it be ?)
(for gas at low power you want the lowest efficiency ie 8 cyls firing and throttles almost closed ?)
certainly Renault Sport have told us a while ago that cylinder cutting is in normal use (FWIW they say for response)

any torque 'ripple' has potential
(though single cylinder motorcycles are powered largely by myth)

don't the F1 cars have 'shock absorbers' in the transmission ? (needed with the 'instant change' gearboxes)
torque ripple can be surely engineered to excite these to help traction ?
IMO this is now normal
(I chose not to mention this issue earlier, honest !)

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Holm86
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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Tommy Cookers wrote:I'm not clear that KV's source is entirely correct (to be yin yang, why would it be ?)
(for gas at low power you want the lowest efficiency ie 8 cyls firing and throttles almost closed ?)
certainly Renault Sport have told us a while ago that cylinder cutting is in normal use (FWIW they say for response)
You would rather want 4 cyl at 40% throttle than 8 cyl at 20% throttle for more gas flow. With throttle at 40% you get much more air through the engine. And you still inject fuel into the 4 cylinders that dosnt fire. You just dont ignite it. So it ignites in the exhaust.

CBeck113
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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I think a) the floor design from the RB helps enormously in getting the exhaust gases where they need to be in slower corners, and b) choosing the right cylinders to shut down can also have an impact (shutting off every second ignition, or four on, four off). By using the second method you can pulsate your power delivery / torque, causing a TC effect. That would also explain the loudness while off throttle - there's more unburned fuel being ignited in the exhaust manifold.
What you you think?
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CBeck113
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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And another aspect: what if you only allowed your KERS to recharge when you press the throttle? That would allow it to work against the engine during acceleration (further torque reduction), and should be perfectly legal, since only the activation is regulated.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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turbof1
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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CBeck113 wrote:I think a) the floor design from the RB helps enormously in getting the exhaust gases where they need to be in slower corners, and b) choosing the right cylinders to shut down can also have an impact (shutting off every second ignition, or four on, four off). By using the second method you can pulsate your power delivery / torque, causing a TC effect. That would also explain the loudness while off throttle - there's more unburned fuel being ignited in the exhaust manifold.
What you you think?
I am actually wondering to what extend red bull needs the exhaust plumes anymore to seal the diffuser. My general impression is that alongside improvements in exhaust plume extraction, is that they are more capable of vortex use to do the job.
#AeroFrodo

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Holm86
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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CBeck113 wrote:And another aspect: what if you only allowed your KERS to recharge when you press the throttle? That would allow it to work against the engine during acceleration (further torque reduction), and should be perfectly legal, since only the activation is regulated.
Look at what aussiegman writes on the middle of page 6.

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Juzh
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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User comment on JAonF1:


check out sounds as of 3:29. Caterham with “the” SV sound…
Then again at 6:12: first it’s SV, then Webber, then a Williams. Even the Williams has “the” sound imho.

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SectorOne
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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I think having two different sources saying the car sounded different then everyone else at certain (not all the time) parts during the race is enough to conclude it actually did.

This was also during the race, where the video above filmed all of it from the main straight.
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krisfx
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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I was sat at Rivage at Spa and Vettel's car didn't sound different to any of the other Renault powered cars.

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turbof1
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Re: RB Traction Control yin yang

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Didn't we have this same debate right after the Canadian race? This is kind of running in circles.

There should be something else to it. Shutting down cilinders, KERS giving TC-esque features,... are available to all teams/engine manufacturers. I did read somewhere here something about the gearbox, which might be more interesting to follow up.
#AeroFrodo