2013 Korean Grand Prix

[iotar__]

Permane: "We have let Kimi past him a couple of times this year, and those have been with good reason when we have had a shot of overtaking."

Any doubts that Lotus are lying? Boooo. What shot at Silverstone, at what exactly? What shot in Germany? Zero. The real team orders were in the form of "undercut" or split strategy of changing to older than Vettel's mediums? What "good reason" was present at the time of doing it? "We tried to undercut Vettel with Grosjean but that didn't work," 1. Lie 2. I wonder why changing to older tyres with low deg in the middle of two tyres stints didn't work. Who was faster in the first stint in Germany and had the chance to close on Vettel even more? No "good reason" team orders there? Who was faster on softs and had better chance to challenge Vettel? It was a "real shot" for a change. Salesman of owner's preferred driver is now pretending that there was some logic to team orders at Lotus, not to mention results. No there wasn't, just marketing preference of a driver.

Not this year but still failures of TO: what shot in Bahrain? Zero. What shot in Hungary 2012 (you can pretend this wasn't TO but had they been driving for different teams KR would have never finished in front after ptistops)? Zero. What shot in Singapore at anything? Zero, glorious two points gained. OK, let's pretend these were "shots", it's 100% failure rate, very impressive from both driver and team. Not challenging Vettel in Korea (let's be clear - no doubt about it and I wouldn't want it) would be no different but at least they'd be consistent.

What about safety cars Mr Permane? "There was an element of luck for Kimi with the safety car" "Element"? How about full 100% element of luck (25 s)? Really small number in F1. Same song as in Germany: [the safety car] "It played into Kimi's hands a little" Yes "a little", the whole 10 s, he would have had no chance to be anywhere near top 2 without it. What were the other elements I wonder, the bigger part in Germany for example? Ugh, marketing pitch.

They can play their games (what can you do?) and have two failed seasons in a row no one is responsible for of course, but this shameless lying is what bothers me. I'm surprised Allison packed himself and left in the middle of the season despite all the "shots" at great results.

[Mika1]

Anybody think that a Lewis 2-3 years ago would not have let Grosjean get the better of him and also maybe found a way past Hulkenberg?

Lol, yeah he would add some straight line speed with his hands

[iotar__]

Yea you could see he was all over him for 90% of the lap but every time the track opened up the Sauber just took off like a bat out of hell.

I agree. As much as it would be nice to bash Hamilton for not overtaking, I didn't see clear chances when he failed because of visually 1. top speed 2. traction later. Hulkenberg defended nicely and countered once (Sauber wasn't that slow anyway plus tyres).

[GitanesBlondes]

To be fair to Hamilton, had this been any other circuit, he may have stood a better chance to overtake Hulkenberg.

Korea does not provide very many overtaking opportunities at all. Sector 1 and the tail end of sector 3 are the only good chances to do anything. I give Hamilton credit for trying to outbrake Hulkenberg multiple times. But I also give credit to Sauber for setting that car up the way they did, and to Hulkenberg for taking full advantage of it without making any forced or unforced errors.

[Rikhart]

Dude if you honestly believe grosjean is better than Raikkonen in any way, shape, or form, you have serious issues.

Grosejan is better than Kimi in raw speed.

Romain has had the pace on Kimi on most of the races this year

This leads me to conclude you haven´t watched any races.

[Spacepace]

Lotus let Raikkenon through in the past because he was in the championship then but that ain't going to happen now

[GitanesBlondes]

I always enjoy the continued myth that Grosjean is the equal of Raikkonen.

Curious how such a thing persists race after race in spite of the evidence showing the contrary.

[Rikhart]

Oh dear, just witnessed Grosjean whining in the radio that he cant overtake Raikkonen, and the whole team having to hold his hand like a baby. This is one of the most pathetic things I have seen in this sport so far.

[AnthonyG]

I'm a Raikkonen fan, and of Lotus, but giving teamorders at the end of the race is silly.

I never get it, why do teams let the order fixed at the end of a race? It doesn't change the end result for the team and it's doesn't show much trust in your drivers. (and even more, contrary to what all teams use, not racing your teammate in the beginning of a race gives a better result due to the possible multiplication-effect, than not racing at the end)

[iotar__]

I always enjoy the continued myth that Grosjean is the equal of Raikkonen.

Curious how such a thing persists race after race in spite of the evidence showing the contrary.

What is this, random thought of the week? Indeed curious and I agree Grosjean is better (despite still driving at 80% potential) and this weekend was excellent example. As was Germany, Hungary, Bahrain and a dozen other races already mentioned many times.

As for Korea, one last time, I don't care nor would I prefer it but since Lotus lied and tried to cram logic into their evil ways let's be objective and analytical about it with covering all possibilities however unlikely. You have 2 drivers that'd finish 2-3, you don't care. One on fresher tyres, potentially better pace in free air, less degradation, no chance on closing and overtaking second one - dirty air.

Driver leading the race may develop some problems let's say tyre puncture(ish) that would be most costly at the end of the stint. At exactly the same time when difference between your 2 drivers would be the biggest. Simple: one would have a shot at winning the race, the other - not. Do you consider this possibility because it objectively exists, and you have your policy of maximizing chances regardless of driver's name so you put the one with a better chance in front in the beginning of the stint or not? No working backwards from result.

Anyway, chances of overtaking Vettel through whatever problems he could have had or pace were bigger than Raikkonen's chances of WDC after Singapore 2012 (or as I would say at any other time when they used TO).

[GitanesBlondes]

I always enjoy the continued myth that Grosjean is the equal of Raikkonen.

Curious how such a thing persists race after race in spite of the evidence showing the contrary.

What is this, random thought of the week?

Instructions:

1) Scroll up the screen the 2nd previous post after mine.

2) Read.

3) Process.

Thank you kindly.

[foxmulder_ms]

Nice race. Raikkonen showed his quality one more time. He schooled Roman and he had really nice overtakes. I missed how he was passed by Alonso during the 1st pitstops. Was it slow pit, or late pit so he lost time? Webber had terrible luck, feel for him.

Good race overall, enjoyed it.

[ringo]

This leads me to conclude you haven´t watched any races.

Ok, can you honestly say that Kimi is the faster driver over a lap?

I've watch the races, Kimi is better overall racer, but i've seen too many times this year when Romain is much faster and when he gets it right, he's fighting for podiums on the race leader's strategy.

It's not blasphemy to think that Romain is faster on pure pace.
The kid is learning, and he's at a stage where he's starting to give solid performances with less errors.
For the races where he does finish on the podium, i rate those performances higher than Kimi's podium finishes this year, in terms of clean and fast running, with no SC gimmicks or occurrences.
I'd go as far as to bet that he does outqualify Kimi in Suzuka and does have a better race pace. I know kimi may get lucky, but i'm placing the focus on the Romain's raw speed.

[ringo]

I always enjoy the continued myth that Grosjean is the equal of Raikkonen.

Curious how such a thing persists race after race in spite of the evidence showing the contrary.

Maybe because it's true?
Let's see how he does against Alonso next year.
See if he can do better than Grosjean 2009.

[Traction]

Anybody think that a Lewis 2-3 years ago would not have let Grosjean get the better of him and also maybe found a way past Hulkenberg?

Lol, yeah he would add some straight line speed with his hands

I'm not talking straight line speed genius I'm talking through the other sectors, perhaps he would have taken some more risk, more aggressive. I certainly don't believe he would have allowed Grosjean to get the better of him either. As mentioned possibly it's the tyres.