2013 Japanese GP - Suzuka

[majki2111]

Vettel DNF at Suzuka. Just one hunch.

[Morteza]

Vettel is luckier than that Pole and win for Vettel is my prediction (that is a fact, really ). Alonso and one of those Lotus drivers on the 2nd and 3rd place. Mercedes may well get the strategy and setup wrong once again so I would not count on them for a podium spot. Webber will have another DNF

[godlameroso]

Typically a pointy front end means stiff front suspension that's slightly overdamped, as it's a pretty smooth macro surface you can get away with a slammed car and run it very stiff. The downside to this is that the suspension can become twitchy, finding the proper compromise is tricky but crucial. The faster you can change direction in sector 1 the more time you save because every turn there flows from the previous one. I can also imagine the slight fear that creeps into drivers minds as they try to push through the two Degner curves. Your turn in and braking has to be ultra precise not to mention the first one is a bit of a blind corner. Really the whole circuit is a massive challenge to get a perfect lap. The right entry angle into turn one is 2 inches wide and you approach this invisible apex corner almost flat out in an F1 car.

I thought managing wheel spin is a trait of open diff cars at least in my experience, in either case I'm a little jealous, I've never driven Suzuka. I've been to Fuji, and Suzuka but I've never driven on the tracks.

[ironrose]

Looking at the way how VetBull is running in today's F1 .. i can only think of Mark Webber at Suzuka 2013


• To have broken front wing after first corner incident on lap 1, presumably with RG
• To have issues with his KERS.
• Has a bad pit stop that puts him behind the pack.
• Needs to short shift during the later part of the race when he is overtaking other cars brilliantly and let them pass him again.
• Wheel comes off after a pit stop
• Needs to maintain the GAP with Daniel Ricciardo
• Needs to cool down his brakes
• Will need to save fuel from the 3rd lap
• Needs to start looking after his brand new set of super softs immediately after a pit exit.
• Attends an interview with Lee Meckenzie during the race at about 1:30 PM BST and we can hear F1 cars racing in the background.
• Lap 10: BOX .. BOX .. BOX.. Lap 11: BOX .. BOX .. BOX.. Lap 12: BOX .. BOX .. BOX..

[iotar__]

Looking at the way how VetBull is running in today's F1 .. i can only think of Mark Webber at Suzuka 2013


• To have broken front wing after first corner incident on lap 1, presumably with RG
• To have issues with his KERS.
• Has a bad pit stop that puts him behind the pack.
• Needs to short shift during the later part of the race when he is overtaking other cars brilliantly and let them pass him again.
• Wheel comes off after a pit stop
• Needs to maintain the GAP with Daniel Ricciardo
• Needs to cool down his brakes
• Will need to save fuel from the 3rd lap
• Needs to start looking after his brand new set of super softs immediately after a pit exit.
• Attends an interview with Lee Meckenzie during the race at about 1:30 PM BST and we can hear F1 cars racing in the background.
• Lap 10: BOX .. BOX .. BOX.. Lap 11: BOX .. BOX .. BOX.. Lap 12: BOX .. BOX .. BOX..

You got one part wrong - he'll break his wing after collision with Alonso (1000% higher chance) and after this piece of dirty driving they will be both patting themselves on the backs, and hurr-durr-ing about high driving standards .

Then instead of blaming his own team and genius Newey (he can't do that because Mateschitz is bankrolling his future career (?)) misguidedly bitter Webber will continue one of his recent little crusades against tyres or evil pay drivers. Who are you Mark, defender of the young talents suddenly? Yeah, days when car manufacturers spent 20 million on drivers finishing 10th and 12th are gone, imagine that (we'll see about Ferrari next season ). Go talk to Mateschitz and Ecclestone, buddies who don't need smaller teams and bleed them dry.

Then he'll blame stewards probably, since he questioned not only Singapore (this is not CCTV footage you're looking for) but also Rosberg reprimand. He was lucky he didn't get a penalty for that, where in the clean driving rule book does it say you can change direction like that mid-corner? Not anti-Webber but WTF Mark, staying too long in RB is not good for your soul and you lose perspective?

OT but it can happen and Suzuka will be boring, Korea at least had ssoft-medium, probably better for Merc but mostly doesn't matter.

[notApineapple]

I thought managing wheel spin is a trait of open diff cars at least in my experience, in either case I'm a little jealous, I've never driven Suzuka. I've been to Fuji, and Suzuka but I've never driven on the tracks.

When I say the inside is spinning, I don't mean it is in an uncontrolled wheel spin up. What I have seen is that in a good setup, the diff is effectively locked on corner exit (rear wheel speeds are the same) and the more highly loaded outside wheel largely determines the rotational speed of the complete rear axle. This leaves the inside wheel rotating at the same speed which is slightly faster than it would be freewheeling.

However, because the diff is locked, its not an unstable condition (in terms of the wheel spinning up).

I hope its kinda clear, took me a long time to get my head around.

[raymondu999]

because the diff is more locked, that means that the rear wheels are trying to longitudinally travel the same distance, whereas the inner rear is actually travelling a shorter distance, and tighter radius

[notApineapple]

because the diff is more locked, that means that the rear wheels are trying to longitudinally travel the same distance, whereas the inner rear is actually travelling a shorter distance, and tighter radius

Yes, so it has a higher longitudinal slip ratio, but my point is that this should not cause a higher wear or deg on the inside wheel because the lateral and vertical loads are much lower.

I think if you would calculate the power dissipated in the contact patch due to slip (contact patch force x velocity) you will have more energy going into the outer wheel and less on the inner wheel.

Perhaps graining could be an issue on the inner wheel... I don't know. But still, for me, there is nothing conclusively telling me that the inside wheel wears faster on a circuit with tight radii.

[raymondu999]

The inner rears would be subjected to greater lateral, as they try to turn a tighter radius than the outside tyre - and in fact the lower vertical loads mean less traction on the inner rear, causing a higher slip ratio.

Higher slip ratio always results in more wear. Not necessarily deg, but it will mean more wear.

[notApineapple]

The inner rears would be subjected to greater lateral, as they try to turn a tighter radius than the outside tyre

Don't agree with you there at all. The lateral load split left to right is roughly the same as the vertical load distribution. Therefore the more loaded outside wheel always produces more lateral force. Unless you are running a crazy asymmetrical setup there's simply no way the inside wheel is producing more lateral force. I've seen this in hundreds of simulations plus tests on a race car with dynamometric wheels.

Higher slip ratio always results in more wear. Not necessarily deg, but it will mean more wear.

While I agree on the point that the inner wheel could be at a higher slip ratio, its not correct to say that more slip ratio = more wear because slip ratio is only half the story (the other half being longitudinal force). A high slip ratio with almost no longitudinal force (i.e. due to an unloaded wheel) isn't going to produce much wear. Like wise, a highly loaded wheel with no slip ratio (i.e. just freewheeling) isn't going to wear either. The contact patch power due to longitudinal slip/grip is going to give you a better feel for the wear a tyre will see:
power = F_long x (1 + Slipratio) x velocity

So while a tight radius corner might invite the inner wheel to run at a higher slip ratio, the load could be reduced on the tyre by running the roll distribution more to the rear or reducing the diff locking.

[Mandrake]

I think Pole will go to Hamilton, then Vettel, Rosberg, Webber, Grosjean, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hülkenberg.....

In the race, Hamilton will soon lose out due to being limited on tire wear and the battle between Vettel and Grosjean for the lead will emerge. Due to a better strategy, Romain will win the race with Vettel in second, and Hamilton in third fending off Webber for the last laps. Alonso will only be fifth and be furious about his ride again.

[Jonnycraig]

I think Pole will go to Hamilton, then Vettel, Rosberg, Webber, Grosjean, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hülkenberg.....

In the race, Hamilton will soon lose out due to being limited on tire wear and the battle between Vettel and Grosjean for the lead will emerge. Due to a better strategy, Romain will win the race with Vettel in second, and Hamilton in third fending off Webber for the last laps. Alonso will only be fifth and be furious about his ride again.

Struggle to see where Hamilton would lose out if he gets pole. Like Hungary, there really isn't anywhere to overtake as DRS has been pretty ineffective in recent years and with the inevitable harder tyre starters, the undercut is going to have to be judged perfectly.

[godlameroso]

The degradation in Suzuka will be less than in Korea, so Red Bull will just take it as they can actually use their speed. Only unforeseen circumstances will prompt someone to run more than two stops.

Any guesses as to how many people end up in the gravel at degner?

[Mandrake]

I thought Mercs have problems whenever a circuit is more stressful on the rears. Once degradation kicks in, Vettel could easily pass him with superior accel. out of the last chicane.

There is a lot of guessing involved though. Still, if it happened it'd make for a pretty good GP

[Shrieker]

Sorry but I can't see Hamilton getting pole. Red Bull have been very effective in recent races, and Suzuka is one of their favorite tracks. Vettel pole/win.