Electrostatic Dampers & SF

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Carlos
Carlos
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Electrostatic Dampers & SF

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Several threads have discussed the active electrostatic (rheologic) shock absorbers used on the Cadilac CTS anf Ferrari 550 M road cars and rumoured to have been tested by Ferrari in F1. This technology can also be applied to future actuators, brake systems and clutches.

A basis definition from the visionary science fiction writer Jack Vance from his 1964 novel: The Demon Princes

" ...tubes, each containing a magnetic slurry: iron powder in a viscous liquid. Reacting to fields from internal windings, these tubes selectively contract with great force. By proper circuitry any contortion of the tubes is possible... "

" ...design of the phasing nodes, the couplings to the modulators, the modulators themselves ..."

Basically a non-engineer who predicted a technology 40+ years before it's time. I wonder how many of the engineers, uiniversityies and corporations working on this got their inspiration from Jack Vance? He also anticipated the invention of conductive film. holographic projection and solar sails to propel space craft.

Interesting

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joseff
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In principle it's no different from installing adjustable valves in the shocks. In this case, varying the valve diameter allows more/less freedom for the fluid (gas/oil) to move through. MR dampers adjust the viscosity instead.

The obvious benefit is reduction of moving parts. Can anyone name any other? Manufacturing costs? What about temperature? I imagine the electromagnets must generate some heat.

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Ciro Pabón
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joseff: the designs I've seen are not active. This is forbidden.
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the
configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the
suspension system is forbidden.
Ferrari uses simple magnets. Now I can't find the thread where we discussed Ferrari magnetic shock absorbers, but I bet we did.

One of the advantages may be that the system responds not only to the speed but also to the acceleration, and in a not linear-way, that you can adjust relatively easy. I guess that "normal" shock absorbers can do that, but...

In the thread I can't find :oops: we gave a link to the document written by (who I presume are) the inventors at FIAT... shesh.
Ciro

Carlos
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From the articles I have read on the net, these shocks respond more quickly than other shock designs. It's a very active area of research and developement. With applications extending from auto use to recoiless small arms to large artillery pieces, trains and massive trucks.

My point in the post was actually that science fiction writer's work often precedes the invention of engineers and designers. Imagination predicting the future. Imagination could be considered a valuable human characteristic.

Jersey Tom
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Here's the better question - why do it at all? Ask yourself what does a damper do, what influences what damping rate you would want, and why would you need continuously variable, on-the-fly adjustment through a race?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

manchild
manchild
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Since FIA banned use of dampers which had liquid with changeable viscosity depending on electrical current perhaps new systems that are passive 100% are based on this Piezoelectricity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity

[img:300:153]http://www.magic25filter.com/images_sli ... _small.jpg[/img]

[img:260:202]http://www.nexternal.com/gallade/images/1505600001.jpg[/img]

Carlos
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With continuous variable viscosity shock absorbers, each wheel would be able to react independantly to wheel loading, controling body roll, offering consistent ride height, anti-squat and anti-dive under a wide variety of conditions. To control vehicle dynamics, polar movement between the 4 corners of a car The system includes sensors and computer control to achieve this, with extremely quick response to transient inputs. I imagine this would be an advantage. Better handling and car balance, I imagine, is desirable. I imagine it would also offer the same advantages as a mass damper at each wheel. Some engineers in F1 imagined a mass damper at each wheel would be useful.

I didn't ask a question. My posts concerned the value of literary imagination and how a science fiction author used his to anticipate the introduction of a technology 40 years before it's time. To me imagination is an important quality and I imagined it might be of interest.

I imagine there is a reason why the technology was forbidden, but perhaps it offers an advantage that I can't imagine. So much for imagination.

Carlos
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Manchild - Piezo electric input to change the viscosity of a fluid is an interesting inspiration. I wonder if it would be regarded as passive, - it certainly is compared to what I described.

ginsu
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My friend's Dad has a Volvo S60R which features the magneto-rheological dampers. Unfortunately, the dampers have been serviced a few times already under warranty and they definitely lose some ability to dampen after awhile. I think extreme heat cycling really affects these things. I don't think they could be used in motorsport simply because they don't last very long. Possibly, Ferrari have a much better design, but people also take care of their Ferrari's better by garaging them, etc.
I love to love Senna.

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Ciro Pabón
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Sorry about my last post. I talked about a previous thread on this, but I had it at another place... :oops:

This is what I wrote, abbreviated to suit this thread:
Originally Posted by zac510
The rumour was that Ferrari F1's system changed the viscosity based on the travel of the damper, so at near maximum travel it stiffened up or something like that. Which is still passive, because it is repeatable and not modified by electronics.
Relevant regulations:
10.2 Suspension geometry:
...
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the suspension system is forbidden.
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion.
I'd guess there is a problem with article 10.2.2 (and less blatantly with 10.2.3), if you somehow use an electric external source to "magnetize" the liquid.

This forbids, for example, the (active) suspension developed by Bose (yeah, the sound guys), that relies on ultra-hyper-extra powerful magnets:

Bose suspension

Image

In a regular shock adsorber, the deflection valves are like round washers, but they are in the shape of a truncated cone: if you see them from the edge, they are not a line, the outer part of the circle is upwards of the center part. The picture I am posting is terrible, it has only one deflection valve on the bottom chamber, I do not know why.

Image

When the pressure in the liquid increases, the washer "clicks" and reverses its form, allowing the liquid to pass. The more pressure, the more clicks you'll get and more fluid will pass, absorbing with less resistance big movements while keeping the car "stiff" on small vertical movements of the tyre, when the valves are closed.

The racing shock absorbers I have worked with have a lot more valves than the ones in the picture (at least in the rebound side). What you regulate when you tune the car is the size of the holes and the size of the washers of this valves.

There are a couple (well, four) improvements to the basic shock absorber I know.

The first are the gas charged ones. There you have a gas on a "third" chamber that has compressed nitrogen. This has two purposes: first, the increased pressure of the gas makes harder for the air and the liquid to mix. A mixture of gas an liquid is compressible, while a liquid is not. With less aireation the shock absorber is more consistent: normal shock absorbers get "mushy" after a while (not all the problems you get at the end of the race come from tyre degrading... ). Secondly, the gas pressure precharges the shock absorber, making it stiffer. This pressure will not help to increase the height of a car. The reason gas shock absorbers extend by themselves is a little more tricky: the area of the piston on the upper part of the valve is reduced (because of the shock absorber rod) and thus a differential pressure will develop.

Second, shock absorbers with a dual resistance have been devised. In this case, you have two shock absorbers, one inside the other (crudely speaking). The first one is "soft" and takes small irregularities of the road. The second one takes big bumps (is stiffer) and makes the car less prone to pitch an rolling. They also have tapered grooves on the pressure tube that allow the fluid to bypass the main valve while the shock absorber is in a middle zone and forces all the liquid to pass through the main valve when it is extended or compressed too much.

Third, there are acceleration sensitive shock absorbers: they have special valves that are sensitive, not only to the velocity of the fluid, like the dual resistance ones, but sensitive to G-forces. I know the Monroe Reflex. In this model, there is a "twin valve": the normal valve and a bypass around it, concentrical in what appears to be just one valve.

Fourth, there is a speciall kind of acceleration sensitive shock absorbers, really ingenious (well, at least I didn't "get it" when I saw them for the first time... ). They are also called mono-chamber absorbers (at least in spanish). Of course, they only have a chamber. The chamber has a free-floating dividing piston, that separates compressed nitrogen gas in the lower section, from the liquid in the upper section, over the dividing piston. The pressure of the gas in this case helps to sustain the vehicle. The dividing piston moves freely keeping the liquid chamber full at all times, as the pressure piston (the normal piston of a regular shock absorber) moves up and down.

Image

Well: does an F1 car use one of these four kinds? Or there is a fifth type?

I'll continue with a second post on magnetic-rheological dampers.
Ciro

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Ciro Pabón
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This is how the Sachs dampers look, according to a (rather old) post by Sachs:

Image

I found a pdf abstract that probably (hey, it was made by FIAT scientists) is the "source" of the invention: http://actuator.de/contents/pdf/program ... etti_s.pdf

They work in a different manner of the ones I know. This is how they look on the inside (this drawing is sort of a joke, pleeeze).

Image

A rotational damper works by turning the vanes to push the fluid through a set of valves, as "clearly" shown in the right part of the picture. Of course, the resistance you get when you turn the vanes inside the tube depicted depends on how viscous is (how sticky) the fluid inside.

There are several fluids that have diferent "rheological properties" (viscosity) when the conditions change. The first that comes to my mind is ketchup: if you slowly apply forces to ketchup, it has high viscosity; on the other hand, if you apply the force quickly, its viscosity lessens (that's why you hit the bottom of the bottle to "release" it).

Believe it or not, this is the same thing that happens with asphalt. Actually asphalt behaves in an opposite way to ketchup: if you park a trailer on hot asphalt, it will flow under the wheels; if you hit it hard, like when the trailer goes at high speed, it won't flow. Sometimes you can see tolls plazas in bad shape because of this. But I digress...

Apparently, if you put magnets inside the damper, you can alter the "stickiness" of a magnetic fluid. This is called "magnetorheology" (viscosity altered by magnetism). The best I could quickly find is this linear mono-chamber damper (the fourth option I gave in a previous post); the light blue squares are the magnets and the lines on top of them are the "magnetic restricted zone", where the fluid becomes sticky: PDF

Image

Finally, I found here that the damping variation caused by permanent magnets is not too far from the one you get with active, electromagnetic ones: http://web.me.unr.edu/ciml/11.pdf.

You can see that the force with "magnets-only" (gray lower line), even if lower than when electrically excited (pink upper line) it is still sizeable:

Image

BTW, the invention is old: 1940, by Jacob Rainbow, an american.

So, my dear Carlos, it seems that Mr. Vance copied Mr. Rainbow.
Ciro

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joseff
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ginsu wrote:...Unfortunately, the dampers have been serviced a few times already under warranty and they definitely lose some ability to dampen after awhile...
being electronically controlled and all, wouldn't the on board computer compensate? Or else the dealer could reprogram the damping curve?

Carlos
Carlos
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Ciro - Thanks for the extensive post, vey detailed information and very helpful, filling in a lot of gaps in my knowledge.

I do enjoy the books of Mr Vance very much, but I must remember, they are, after all, science fiction. :wink:

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joseff
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For those interested in SF/real-life comparisons, look at
http://www.technovelgy.com

Technovelgy - where science meets fiction :)

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Ciro Pabón
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Thanks, joseff, great link. :)
Ciro