2013 Japanese GP - Suzuka

[oT v1]

Was mark giving the team two fingers when we went by the pit wall? at first i thought it was at Grosjean for holding him up (a bit tasteless) but then i realised Gro slowed and stopped well after Webber went by.

Nevermind, just seen it was to Vettel as Webber went past, @23sec - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymOKBc_u_YQ

they dont show the gesture in the vid but i saw it live

[ringo]

Raikkonen will keep doing what he can there but his job is done. I know some individuals who know very little about racing drivers like to big up Grosjean, mostly for their own bizarre reasons, but the points situation over the past two seasons tells you everything you need to know.

Motivation has absolutely nothing to do with anything and it's something people who know very little repeat time and again. Raikkonen has destroyed Grosjean for two seasons despite Grosjean looking fast - and people still cling on to that. There are very clear reasons for that and those won't change and will only get magnified once Grosjean is under real pressure to get double the points he has now. He's just not a 'racing driver'. It's no use calling him a 'kid' either, because he isn't a kid - another silly mistake many who don't know what they're talking about make.

Last year has nothing to do with his performance now. Kimi's job is not done. You sound like the one who knows little about racing. How can the guy's job be done and the season is not over as yet?
The man has poor self motivation, and that's why he left the sport in the first place.
He hasn't destroyed Grosjean. Grosjean is his own worst enemy. Kimi was never the faster driver in qualifying. Sure the stats say otherwise, but on their best days Romain is a clearly quicker pilot.
What makes your post even worst is that you claim that Romain isn't a "racing driver" what's that suppose to mean?

He has been decisively making Kimi look ordinary in the past few races, and this is not down to anything but the guy getting more confident and Kimi losing motivation; which always happens. And to make matters even more clear i'm still going to extend the bet that Romain will be the faster driver once again in India.

[komninosm]

How can you guys say Raikkonen was not good in this race? In the race he was great. He took 5th position from starting 10th passing quite competitive cars. One can say he is under performing in qually for last 3 races but in the race he is phenomenal. Gaining more places than anyone else with some great moves.

Kimi usually races very well. However if it weren't for aggressive swerving from Webber at the start and unsafe release for Rosberg we would likely have another 2 more cars in front of him.

Fixed

[anzx]

I agree with you ringo, most of the people who watch f1 will say that Kimi is quicker than Grosjean, because they don't know Grosjean but he has the potential, for those who think Romain is not a good racing driver I will just inform you that he won GP2 championship at the middle of the season (2011 or 2010) so he was not need to race in GP2 which allowed him to test an F1 car. Like I said, he didn't have luck and he made too many mistakes, but looks like everything is changing for him now, so it's just the matter of time when he achives his first victory, but when he does then he will be unstopable.

[Donuts]

Fernando Alonso (on the team orders): "Or do like Red Bull does - one car does two stops, one car does three stops, and they finish first and second. This is a much easier life."

[iotar__]

It could have been interesting for RB, regardless of the outcome, if Lotus changed for three stops and mediums leaving Webber in front in free air and Vettel behind him. I'm not sure they would have pitted Webber then.

It is pretty safe to assume that in such a scenario Grosjean would have ended up 3rd instead of 3rd.
Edit: If there was a tiny chance for Grosjean to end up better than 3rd it would have been staying out covering Vettel instead of Webber.
Still doubtfull if it would have worked.

Re pitting Webber: Once they called him in relatively early and based on the (not so daring) assumption that Webber doesn't save tyres as well as either Lotus or Vettel, there was no other reasonable strategy for Webber left than the one they used.

Leaving aside the effect for each driver personally (One profits, one doesn't) a perfect strategy from RB, fully exploiting having two cars opposed to one Lotus. Text Book example.

I agree but textbook example means for Rb that Webber always ends behind. Let's say Webber stays in front of Vettel, they drive at RG's pace for a while, then they are on their own, Webber in front free air, pits earlier, it compromises Vettel pitstop, Webb gets in front. Vettel is behind has fresher tyres and better pace but not as big an advantage as against RG, plus it's a team-mate. Countdown start, risk of overtaking higher and higher, overtaking less possible with every lap, dirty air, how about team orders for holding position? It's not impossible that Red Bull wanted to avoid it.

Then the factor is: if Webber hadn't pitted Grosjean would have stayed longer, I didn't think about it earlier but pitstop was relatively early, if it was later but still in front on fresher tyres - better chance to stay in front(?).

About three stopping RG maybe it was worse - but I was thinking about pitting before Webber, once the hards were slower, getting in front and counting on mediums being comparatively stronger, doesn't matter. Going back to Vettel to finish the subject - he had new hards in 2nd stint - Webb/Gros old - small difference but still.

[radosav]

People forget that when they decided to put Webber on three stop strategy they forced him to overtake Vettel or both Vettel and Grosjean at some point of the race. And with his traction out of corners at Suzuka that wasn't an easy job.

[foxmulder_ms]

How can you guys say Raikkonen was not good in this race? In the race he was great. He took 5th position from starting 10th passing quite competitive cars. One can say he is under performing in qually for last 3 races but in the race he is phenomenal. Gaining more places than anyone else with some great moves.

Well we can't say Kimi is a bad driver, but, the fact is, he gained the postions because his car is better than those cars in midfield (saubers, Mclarens), higher places were untargatable today). Anyway, Grosjean is driving faster than him since Hungaroring/Nurburgring, but the luck and mistakes didn't help Romain, I think Romain would won Hungaroring if there would be no drive thru penalty... anyway, Grosjean is 0.5 sec quicker than Kimi in the same car and Romain's race starts are better than Kimi's, Kimi always drops a place or two on start. Grosjean is realy on a charge now, I think he is the only one who can stop the Vettel's winning streak, and the guys at Redbull should be aware of him.

Why couldn't Grosjean have done the same earlier? He has the better car than the midfielders and started behind them couple of times. And even with these recent bad qually, Kimi managed to score more points than GRo in last 3-4-5 races!

[Juzh]

People forget that when they decided to put Webber on three stop strategy they forced him to overtake Vettel or both Vettel and Grosjean at some point of the race. And with his traction out of corners at Suzuka that wasn't an easy job.

Didn't seem like a problem for Vettel.

[CHT]

I believe what motivate RBR to switch Webber from 2 to 3 stops was simply because Webber was unable to overtake Grojean in his first stint and if he continues to "cruise" behind Grojean, (which give Grojean a comfortable pace for a 2 stops) it will mean Vettel in 3rd will be push further back from the leader, unless they wishes Vettel to let overtake Webber on track with a faster car.

Even if Webber had overtaken Grojean in the first stint and stick to a 2 stops, I honestly doubt webber will be able to make his tires last longer than Grojean or Vettel.

Ultimately, the team decision has to be one that serves the team's overall interest, which is to win both championships, instead of one that focus on one individual.

[radosav]

People forget that when they decided to put Webber on three stop strategy they forced him to overtake Vettel or both Vettel and Grosjean at some point of the race. And with his traction out of corners at Suzuka that wasn't an easy job.

Didn't seem like a problem for Vettel.

Vettel had better traction out of chicane than Webber, due to setup or something else, i don't know, but difference in traction was obvious,Vettel could overtake Grosjean even without DRS.[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usMrvh1Q ... detailpage[/youtube]

[henra]

Then the factor is: if Webber hadn't pitted Grosjean would have stayed longer, I didn't think about it earlier but pitstop was relatively early, if it was later but still in front on fresher tyres - better chance to stay in front(?).

That was exactly what RB countered with that split strategy. They put Grosjean between a rock and a hard place. He could only chose between two evils.
Had they left Webber out for longer, Grosjean would have been able to run more laps with the Mediums and thereby had a chance to push harder on the primes later on in the race if he could have run a proper 2 stop strategy instead of this 2,5 stop.
Would have been at least much more difficult for RB. I doubt they would have achieved a 1 - 2 without this clever strategy.

[raymondu999]

Grosjean said after the race:

Unfortunately the prime tyres didn’t work as well as we hoped, but never mind. As a sort of compensation the option tyres worked just super - almost without degradation

In hindsight, should he have gone OOOP rather than OPP?

[spin1/2]

Lotus' mistake was to cover Webber at the 1st stop, in order to maintain the lead. Instead they should've stuck to the 2 stopper from the beginning. They didn't have the race pace as RBR but they messed up their strategy by trying to race different cars at different times - webber in the beg, and vettel later.

By having web on 3-stop instead of 2, rbr earned themselves a 1-2. Gros would've won ahead of web-vet if rbr.

[raymondu999]

Yes, the mistake was done when Lotus did a 3-stop first stint, but tried to two-stop. It smacks of Raikkonen in China 2012