Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

[Ogami musashi]

According to ferrari head of aerodynamics, the current L/D ratio of F1 car is between 3.5 and 4+...which is pretty impressive.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/videos/4119/ ... -1-part-1/

[Blackout]

And did you notice that the 3d model you can see in that video between 01:00 and 01:02 is not a recent Ferrari F1 car and seems to have a narrower front wing, no beam wing and no apparent exhaust exits... just like a 2014 f1 car? (but with a high nose and push rods at the front) : p

could be an F150 : P

[Ogami musashi]

I don't think it has the narrower front wing. The dimension of the rear wing elements are also not 2014 and about the exhausts you have to be cautious with CFD...many times parts that do not have relevant effects in the case studied are simplified or deleted.

There's no beam wing though

[Blackout]

You're right.
It's just a different and beamwingless version of the F150.

[henra]

According to ferrari head of aerodynamics, the current L/D ratio of F1 car is between 3.5 and 4+...which is pretty impressive.

That would indeed be impressive.
Let's do the Math.
Best L/D one would expect with a medium to low DF setup.
Let's take a Monza Setup:
Top Speed: 350km/h
Let's assume 700 HP at the Wheel.
That gives us 515kW.
Lets assume we need 500kW to achieve 350 km/h.
That means a drag of (500.000 NM/s)/(97m/s) = 5154N. With an L/D Ratio of 4 we would have a DF of 20.618N.
While the car weighs 5886N w/o Fuel but with Driver. Let's add 800N of Fuel and we have an aerodynamically added g capability of ~3,1 coming on top of what the tyres are capable (~ 2g?).
So even with a Monza Setup you end up with a g capability of ~5g at top Speed.

[Ogami musashi]

Actually, highest L/D ratios are often seen in high downforce configurations. The Cz increases more than the Cx with AOA.

Back in 2008, it was said down the pitlane that a monaco downforce set up was in the region of 4,5.

[Tommy Cookers]

According to ferrari head of aerodynamics, the current L/D ratio of F1 car is between 3.5 and 4+...which is pretty impressive.

That would indeed be impressive.
Best L/D one would expect with a medium to low DF setup.
...... With an L/D Ratio of 4 we would have a DF of 20.618N.
While the car weighs 5886N w/o Fuel but with Driver. Let's add 800N of Fuel and we have an aerodynamically added g capability of ~3,1 coming on top of what the tyres are capable (~ 2g?).
So even with a Monza Setup you end up with a g capability of ~5g at top Speed.

surely in concept DF multiplies the g ?
your figures suggest that a car/tyre that corners at 2g with zero DF
has the total wheel 'contact load' increased by the DF to 400% of the load at zero DF (from 6700N to (20600+6700) =27300N)
that is in principle giving 8g cornering ?

IMO the zero DF value would be 1.7 ...... giving 7g at this DF
(if the tyre really gives a cornering response proportionate to the increased contact force, which it won't)
and as soon as this cornering is attempted the speed and DF will fall anyway
but FWIW I agree that the quoted L/D seems optimistic for Monza

surely the L/D of the car will be inherently better at eg Monaco than at Monza ?
the car can be seen as a wingless body having drag but no 'lift' ie L/D=0, combined with some amount of wing of say L/D=5
the Monaco car has a much more wing than has the Monza car, so the Monaco car's L/D will be better than the Monza car's
(this applies even if the Monza and Monaco wings have similar L/D)
DF enhancement by exhaust etc can be regarded as an invisible wing that is bigger at Monaco than at Monza ?
and surely only the Monza wing can be L/D optimal anyway

these reinforce the basic point here ?
that maybe the Ferrari man has in mind the best car L/D ie Monaco not Monza ?

[henra]

surely in concept DF multiplies the g ?
your figures suggest that a car/tyre that corners at 2g with zero DF
has the total wheel 'contact load' increased by the DF to 400% of the load at zero DF (from 6700N to (20600+6700) =27300N)
that is in principle giving 8g cornering ?

I don't think you can multiply. The level above 1g comes from teething/sticking effect with the ground. This teething/sticking will not really multiply as it is more of a material dependency. Up to some Point it will chnage a Little bit with the load factor but will flatten when approaching a certain Limit.

IMO the zero DF value would be 1.7 ...... giving 7g at this DF

I would expect a little bit more for the huge and soft F1 tyres. 1.7g you will do with a Touring Race Car.

surely the L/D of the car will be inherently better at eg Monaco than at Monza ?
the car can be seen as a wingless body having drag but no 'lift' ie L/D=0, combined with some amount of wing of say L/D=5
the Monaco car has a much more wing than has the Monza car, so the Monaco car's L/D will be better than the Monza car's
(this applies even if the Monza and Monaco wings have similar L/D)

I'm not 100% convinced.
Personally I would expect some Medium DF Setup to be the best, actually.
The extremely steep wings in a high DF Setup will have significantly worse L/D ratios themselves. At some point the basic drag of the car w/o wings will pale against deteriorated L/D from induced drag + drag penaylty from the wings operating at high AoA (>20° at rar wing).
If you look at wing polars you will notice that L/D deteriorates significantly at AOA's >5°.Extended Flaps (second element of the RW) also increase drag tremendously.

Looking at a typical high DF Setup I would expect this to be the case, with these setups.
Eactly as you wrote:

...and surely only the Monza wing can be L/D optimal anyway

[henra]

surely in concept DF multiplies the g ?
your figures suggest that a car/tyre that corners at 2g with zero DF
has the total wheel 'contact load' increased by the DF to 400% of the load at zero DF (from 6700N to (20600+6700) =27300N)
that is in principle giving 8g cornering ?

I don't think you can multiply. The level above 1g comes from teething/sticking effect with the ground. This teething/sticking will not really multiply as it is more of a material dependency. Up to some point it will change to some extent with the load factor but will flatten when approaching a certain Limit.

IMO the zero DF value would be 1.7 ...... giving 7g at this DF

I would expect a little bit more for the huge and soft F1 tyres. Close to 1.7g you will do with a Touring Race Car.

surely the L/D of the car will be inherently better at eg Monaco than at Monza ?
the car can be seen as a wingless body having drag but no 'lift' ie L/D=0, combined with some amount of wing of say L/D=5
the Monaco car has a much more wing than has the Monza car, so the Monaco car's L/D will be better than the Monza car's
(this applies even if the Monza and Monaco wings have similar L/D)

I'm not 100% convinced.
Personally I would expect some Medium DF Setup to be the best, actually.
The extremely steep wings in a high DF Setup will have significantly worse L/D ratios themselves. At some point the basic drag of the car w/o wings will pale against deteriorated L/D from induced drag + drag penaylty from the wings operating at high AoA (>20° at rar wing).
If you look at wing polars you will notice that L/D deteriorates significantly at AOA's >5°.Extended Flaps (second element of the RW) also increase drag tremendously.

Looking at a typical high DF Setup I would expect this to be the case, with these setups.
Eactly as you wrote:

...and surely only the Monza wing can be L/D optimal anyway

[SectorOne]

2014

9.8.2 Gear changing is restricted during the following periods :
One gear change is permitted after the race has started and before the car speed has reached
80km/h, provided every gear fitted to the car is capable of achieving at least 80km/h at
15,000rpm.

-

2013

9.8.2 Gear changing is restricted during the following periods :
- Race start: one gear change is permitted after the race has started and before the car
speed has reached 100kph, provided every gear fitted to the car is capable of achieving
at least 100km/h at 18,000rpm.

- Pit stops: No gear change is permitted after a pit stop and until the car speed gets
within 10km/h of the pit lane speed limit when leaving the pits.

2 changes i found while going over the regulations a bit. I figured they are both linked to the fact that we will have one more gear next year but could we expect better starts next year?

And also, maybe better take-offs from the pit stop as you now are free to engage whatever gear you want in pit lane?

[beelsebob]

2 changes i found while going over the regulations a bit. I figured they are both linked to the fact that we will have one more gear next year but could we expect better starts next year?

And also, maybe better take-offs from the pit stop as you now are free to engage whatever gear you want in pit lane?

Yes we almost certainly will see faster starts next year, more torque combined with this will pretty much guarantee it.

[Blanchimont]

I don't see why we should expect faster starts during the next season as current starts are already limited by tyre traction.

[beelsebob]

I don't see why we should expect faster starts during the next season as current starts are already limited by tyre traction.

Only in the very early stages. They kick in kers after only a very short distance, because they stop being traction limited. Add that to the fact that larger tyres next year will mean more traction to handle the torque, and we'll deffinately see faster starts.

[Blanchimont]

Judging from some onboard video telemetry( http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... start&sm=3 ), the cars are traction limited(=not at full throttle) from the start up to ~100km/h. Above this speed, KERS is activated.

With the rear tyres probably being slightly wider next season and the aerodynamic rear tyre load a bit lower, i still believe the starts(=time to 100km/h) next year will be the same as today!

[Holm86]

I thought Pirelli was told that they could not increase the width of the rear tires.