Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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As I said a nice set of graphs.
Obviously not absolutely accurate by virtue of the methods used to aquire them.

However, even so and ignoring the scale detail to a degree.
If the throttle position is shown based on the actual mechanical throttle movement then the drivers right feet are moving slightly faster than a jack rabbit up to 150kph to maintain tyre traction.
I make the modulations around three changes every one tenth of a second.
I cant remember any driver I have worked with who had that rapid a response to throttle requirements, not even in the 'real' days of heeling and toeing etc.

Reca
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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I'm not sure I follow your math on the 3 changes per tenth, if it can help though, here another pic of the same throttle trace I already posted, for Vettel's Singapore pole lap, with widened time scale:
Image

Incidentally, this talk about TC and throttle reminded me of a plot I have that might be interesting, published in mid 2008 on an Italian magazine (SportAutoMoto, not published anymore), a comparison of DAQ from Trulli's Toyota to show the changes between 2007 with TC (red) to 2008 without (black):
Image

From the top the data are speed, accelerator pedal %, engine throttle %, steering angle, % rear slippage.

Differences are evident, in particular in how with TC Trulli went directly full pedal in the first corners while in 2008 he played with it lot more. The interesting bit though is that the throttle traces look actually rather similar so the driver was doing not bad job in "mimicking TC"...
Also worth noticing the automatic "blipping" in downshifts.

The above plot was accompanied by an interview with Marmorini:
It's interesting to work with these rules, some people were expecting new norms to expose big differences between drivers, those were disappointed. At the end of the day there isn't big difference between two teammates, both try to put down on ground as much power as possible. I would have liked to work with our ECU from last year coupled with a system without TC. We would have had lot more possibilities, the SECU is IMO too limited.
Q: Telemetry shows Trulli is using throttle in pretty much same way as electronics did…
Till last year, mid corner the driver would go full throttle and then it was electronics' job to adjust the power. Today that's back to driver, so his sensitivity is fundamental as going full throttle too early he would spin. With electronic management the 100% of the pedal wouldn't correspond to full throttle, but ECU would modulate the power delivery based on grip.
Our TC wasn't cutting ignition only, as that system, called "reactive", causes an increment of fuel consumption. If electronics was reading there wasn't enough grip to apply full power it would reduce engine throttle so to save fuel. It was working smartly via sensors on wheels recording the slippage, coupled with data recorded in maps. If the driver was going full throttle, the system would act based on the expected grip. That was a predictive system. If the system was measuring excessive slip in spite of the predictive control, then the reactive would act cutting ignition.
Q: But track conditions change during the race...
In fact the predictive system was continuously updated. If the reactive system was stepping in too often, it meant parameters of predictive had to be adjusted. Everything would happen under guidance of engineers in the pits that would tell via radio to the driver how to operate on steering wheel knobs. What the system wouldn't do autonomously we would do manually.
Q: Some electronic aids were removed, but some are maintained with the engine
Yes, we tame a bit the V8. When driver presses the pedal, the map helps him by smoothing the power delivery. That way the driver can be more aggressive without risking losing the car.
Throttle opening is way smoother so he can trust going on throttle without fear. Driveability is important and if engine's reaction was too brutal, Jarno and Timo couldn't lift off fast enough, they would just lose the car, period. Based on track's characteristics we define the maps to help driving. We can work on engine map or with the relationship pedal -> throttle.
Q: meaning that a given pedal % doesn't necessarily mean identical throttle %: you can set a wavy map, so that large pedal % corresponds to smaller % of throttle, while at higher speed maybe opposite happens?
Main thing is that 100% pedal corresponds to 100% throttle, that's imposed by rules. Today we have at max 5 maps to work with, one is for wet conditions.

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Same thing by another name.
Fly by wire throttle is still in use.
The mechanical pedal may well be the same as the engine throttle at fully closed and fully open.
What happens in between is software defined.
The FIA allow maps to 'soften' the power application from the IC.
They also allow 'softening' of the Kers generator to help tyre traction during deceleration/braking.
As I said TC by another name.

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flynfrog
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autogyro wrote: As I said TC by another name.
No it is not. TC implies a feedback loop. Wheel speed sensors or actively control the rate of acceleration of the engine. A pre canned softened curve is not TC by any name. It would be the same as calling a different lever ratio on a throttle pedal TC.

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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You do not need a feedback loop or wheel spin sensors if you have sufficient data to program the circuit throttle requirements.
You just need two or more torque input sources into the power train balanced against one another.
The FIA does the rest for you.

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flynfrog
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autogyro wrote:You do not need a feedback loop or wheel spin sensors if you have sufficient data to program the circuit throttle requirements.
You just need two or more torque input sources into the power train balanced against one another.
The FIA does the rest for you.
a throttle map is not Active TC. Its no different than making a none linear linkage setup just a more modern high tech way of doing it.

fasterthanyou
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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autogyro wrote:You do not need a feedback loop or wheel spin sensors if you have sufficient data to program the circuit throttle requirements.
You just need two or more torque input sources into the power train balanced against one another.
The FIA does the rest for you.
The problem is circuit condition may change over the race period. Without the feedback loop, you won't be able to take full advantage of the grip.

autogyro
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fasterthanyou wrote:
autogyro wrote:You do not need a feedback loop or wheel spin sensors if you have sufficient data to program the circuit throttle requirements.
You just need two or more torque input sources into the power train balanced against one another.
The FIA does the rest for you.
The problem is circuit condition may change over the race period. Without the feedback loop, you won't be able to take full advantage of the grip.
Depends on how the M/G is balanced to the IC output.
Doing so does not need software.
It would be rpm modulated using conventional electronics.
Probably built into relay.

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strad
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I thought we had decided that they were using the KERS to drag the power down coming off the corners to lessen the chance of wheelspin??
Been in and out of hospital so I haven't read all the input.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

fasterthanyou
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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autogyro wrote:
fasterthanyou wrote:
autogyro wrote:You do not need a feedback loop or wheel spin sensors if you have sufficient data to program the circuit throttle requirements.
You just need two or more torque input sources into the power train balanced against one another.
The FIA does the rest for you.
The problem is circuit condition may change over the race period. Without the feedback loop, you won't be able to take full advantage of the grip.
Depends on how the M/G is balanced to the IC output.
Doing so does not need software.
It would be rpm modulated using conventional electronics.
Probably built into relay.
But how does the system know the grip improve? A system without feedback loop would have to work passively without adapting to the limit of the traction.

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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By balancing the load on the M/G to counter sudden increases in the IC rpm above a certain value.
Sudden ic rpm increase equals reduced load on M/G reduced load equals wheel spin.
Any sudden reduction in M/G load above a set point would modulate the M/G load using conventional wiring circuit and capacitors.
You can see this in the graphs, that is unless the RB drivers have right feet that modulate throttle position up to 150 kph faster than humanly possible.

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flynfrog
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autogyro wrote: You can see this in the graphs, that is unless the RB drivers have right feet that modulate throttle position up to 150 kph faster than humanly possible.
how are you getting the 150kph? Are you measuring foot speed in Kilometers per hour? Not following your thought process here. Keep in mind the data on those graphs at best is updated at 60hz or about 16ms. That is assuming everything is synced from the car telemetry to the FIA feed to the TV camera to the TV sync. If you look at the second graph you can see these artifacts.
http://i.imgur.com/6j3Xn6e.jpg

hardingfv32
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Could using a pulsating KERS charging schedule during acceleration improve traction when the tires are at the limit? It allows them to re-grip after they start sliding. I am thinking about the MotoGP 'Big Bang' operating mode where the power output is not evenly distributed during a single rpm. The tires are given an opportunity to re-grip each power cycle.

This might make it easier to drive closer on the traction limit.

Brian

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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I'm not sure I follow your math on the 3 changes per tenth, if it can help though, here another pic of the same throttle trace I already posted, for Vettel's Singapore pole lap, with widened time scale:

http://i.imgur.com/6j3Xn6e.jpg

OK about 5 very even modulations every half second.
These modulations on the graph are showing very small throttle movements, not the much larger movements shown for an accepted 'manual' driver actuated throttle used without TL.

Drivers do not have such a fine and rapid response to breaks in traction as anyone who is a decent racing driver is well aware.
When traction is lost the foot goes off throttle rapidly and then on slowly in a controlled way and not in such a small time scale.
Last edited by autogyro on 20 Oct 2013, 15:21, edited 1 time in total.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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hardingfv32 wrote:Could using a pulsating KERS charging schedule during acceleration improve traction when the tires are at the limit? It allows them to re-grip after they start sliding. I am thinking about the MotoGP 'Big Bang' operating mode where the power output is not evenly distributed during a single rpm. The tires are given an opportunity to re-grip each power cycle.

This might make it easier to drive closer on the traction limit.

Brian
Very good comparison, I am well aware of the 'big bang' theory of traction control.
Consulted with Honda for a while.
Of course the Norton Rotary did not suffer from the problem so the Japanese banned it.
A pity because the Norton Rotary would still be much faster than the current Japanese racing bikes.