McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

[munudeges]

I think Gary Anderson is off his rocker saying that teams(Ferrari/McLaren?etc) are using the exhaust for only the brake ducts. Ferrari, McLaren etc are also trying to seal the diffuser with their exhaust, they're just doing it without the ramp.

The net effect for the teams not using a ramped effect is that they are behind and have clearly lost out to Lotus, Sauber and Red Bull. Mercedes have laughably tried to insinuate that Renault are doing something 'special', completely painting over what Sauber have managed.

You can't seal the diffuser effectively unless you are guiding, almost coaxing, exhaust gas in a specific area otherwise it is completely counterproductive - at best inconsistent and at worse slowing you down. Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren can't do that so they are blowing across a gap and the only area that they can do that in is the brake duct area.

Gary Anderson is right. Coming out with a throwaway statement that Mercedes. Ferrari and McLaren are 'doing the same thing without the ramp' completely paints over the mechanics of what is happening. They can't 'do the same thing'. That's why they've fallen quite a way behind......

[Crucial_Xtreme]

The net effect for the teams not using a ramped effect is that they are behind and have clearly lost out to Lotus, Sauber and Red Bull. Mercedes have laughably tried to insinuate that Renault are doing something 'special', completely painting over what Sauber have managed.

You can't seal the diffuser effectively unless you are guiding, almost coaxing, exhaust gas in a specific area otherwise it is completely counterproductive - at best inconsistent and at worse slowing you down. Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren can't do that so they are blowing across a gap and the only area that they can do that in is the brake duct area.

Gary Anderson is right. Coming out with a throwaway statement that Mercedes. Ferrari and McLaren are 'doing the same thing without the ramp' completely paints over the mechanics of what is happening. They can't 'do the same thing'. That's why they've fallen quite a way behind......

I disagree. All of the teams are getting the exhaust to the floor to help seal the diffuser. Until Spa Mercedes(no ramp) has shown it's every bit as quick as Red Bull(ramp) over a single lap(raw pace), they typically only fell back during the race due to tyre deg. I'm not sure one can say solution a is better than solution b because the exhaust and the use of it for aerodynamic effect is only part of the equation. Sure since Spa RB has taken a step forward compared to the others, but they've done lots of modifications to the diffuser and not the exhaust ramp itself.

Kaltenborn said the McLaren style exhaust showed more potential than the ramp which is why they ditched the ramp last year. McLaren ended 2012 with the quickest car and they had no ramp. Again I'm not sure there's enough data, at least that we have access to that says one solution is better than the other, but I think GA is wrong when he's maintained over the past two years that teams are targeting the brake ducts with the exhaust gasses and not the floor.

[trinidefender]

@trinidefender: short span wings do not need to be delta to ride vortices - the name I was looking for is Zimmerman wings. Lots of precious info here:
http://www.acsol.net/~nmasters/vortex-lift/

Interesting. I'll have to do some more research on those. Either way with the large vertical surfaces on the edge of the wings the vortices will be largely reduced meaning that these wings will function in a more normal fashion

[theWPTformula]

Completely agree with Crucial_Xtreme. Gary Anderson comes out with all kinds of things and sometimes it's very good knowledge. But when he says that teams such as McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes are using their semi-coanda systems to blow the brake ducts makes you wonder how he became an analysist...

There is no justifiably better exhaust solution as they work differently from car to car: they are designed around the characteristics of the rear of the car. I wrote an article about both systems a few months ago if you want to take a look - http://thewptformula.wordpress.com/2013 ... t-systems/

[mikeerfol]

Button trying something completely different in India

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110832

Jenson Button will be using a radical set-up at this weekend's Indian Grand Prix to find out if McLaren can unlock a secret for its 2014 Formula 1 car.

Amid a disappointing campaign in which Button nor team-mate Sergio Perez has scored a podium finish, the 2009 world champion reckons McLaren's lack of competitiveness is giving an opportunity to try something very different.

"You definitely go places with the car that you would not normally do because you would be worried about giving points away if the weekend went wrong," said Button, when asked by AUTOSPORT about the lessons taken on board this season.

"Here I have a set-up on my car that is completely different to any other race we have had the last couple of years - just to see where we are. It might help us next year.

"We are in a position where we can do that because we are not fighting for winning races, podiums or the championship so there are some positives to take out of it. And there aren't many in a difficult season."

With McLaren focused on ensuring it does a better job for 2014, Button says there are several areas where it has been able to experiment.

"You learn where you cannot put things in terms of front wing angles and how the airflow is over the car," he said. "And that will really help us for next year's car.

"To have a bad year this year was probably the best year to have it, because you can learn a lot for the new package of 2014."

[dren]

I was getting ready to post that...

I wonder what kind of "radical" set-ups they could try? Maybe a very high DF set-up or the opposite? Maybe something to help fuel economy? Or perhaps it has to do with KERS?

[stefan_]

India 2013 - Thursday (24.10.2013)

[dren]

Completely agree with Crucial_Xtreme. Gary Anderson comes out with all kinds of things and sometimes it's very good knowledge. But when he says that teams such as McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes are using their semi-coanda systems to blow the brake ducts makes you wonder how he became an analysist...

Remember this picture? The lower winglets on the Merc, along with other cars, help keep the exhaust in the area of the diffuser side cutouts.

The tire change had a big impact on the running order. Some fancy engine tuning the Renault uses may be why the Red Bull can get on the throttle sooner.

[mikeerfol]

Scarbs seems to think camera positions have something to do whit Button's 2014 comments.

And how is that "radical"?

[Owen.C93]

You can see they've place them right infront of the upper wishbone. I never really understood McLaren's decision to go pullrod if they're only going to reposition the upper wishbone to have an identical angle to the old pushrod anyway. I thought the angle of the pushrod was the big aero problem. Anyway it looks like the new camera mounts might help that.

[horse]

Scarbs seems to think camera positions have something to do whit Button's 2014 comments.

And how is that "radical"?

Quite, it hardly seems particularly radical. It also seems a bit odd, given their apparent weight issues for next year, that they want to put the cameras as high up on the bodywork as possible. They must be attached to the vanity panel too, so does it need beefed up?

Are they running different wings between the 46 and 5 car again?

This is the 5 car, with rearward mounted wing and high camera housings:



Is this the wing on the 46 car or a spare?

[adrianjordan]

Are McLaren still running a really stiff suspension setup normally?

Perhaps the setup might be more on the mechanical side as well - ie maybe they're going to try a softer suspension setup to see if that works for them or something along those lines.

[theWPTformula]

The changes are not visibly radical although the camera pods have been moved to the top of the nose. I have noticed that car 5 (JB's) has a lower downforce rear wing (2014 wings will be skinnier), although car 6 may also have this.

The changes might possibly be exhaust related and maybe a totally different direction with general setup, such as ride height, anti roll bars, dampers etc. The cars will be heavier next year so they could always place extra ballast in the car during free practice and see what they discover. They could also reduce the effect of the exhaust on the diffuser to see how the rear of the car behaves with lower downforce and how this will affect tyre life. These are all only possibilities. I'm sure someone will have the answers come Friday evening.

[bauc]

As per JB Mclaren will test radical set up with the MP4-28 this weekend to try and find out what they might expect next year.

From Autosport.com:
"You definitely go places with the car that you would not normally do because you would be worried about giving points away if the weekend went wrong,"

"Here I have a set-up on my car that is completely different to any other race we have had the last couple of years - just to see where we are. It might help us next year.

"We are in a position where we can do that because we are not fighting for winning races, podiums or the championship so there are some positives to take out of it. And there aren't many in a difficult season."

He also added:
You learn where you cannot put things in terms of front wing angles and how the airflow is over the car," he said. "And that will really help us for next year's car.

"To have a bad year this year was probably the best year to have it, because you can learn a lot for the new package of 2014."

What do you guys think on above?

[Holm86]

Did you even read the last page before you posted that?? I think not.