Frank Williams on the customer chassis issue

[Ciro Pabón]

Mr. Williams is right. Rules are rules. Actual rules. Talk to his lawyer...

[RH1300S]

Well Frank sums it up very neatly at the head of this thread and it's hard to disagree with him.........sadly I just don't see how in the world STR & Aguri will NOT be running their controversial chassis this year.

I can remember when Max first arrived to head the FIA - someone said that it won't be long before the regulations will be written in such a way that they could be interpreted just about any way the FIA choses.

In this case I suspect they will chose to find a way let those two chassis run.

I hate to say it, but the way the regs are written is a stroke of genius - Max effectively secures the FIA's power to pretty much do whatever the hell they fancy - in the right hands this could be a good thing - conversely.............but I'll leave that out of this discussion

[Principessa]

I think there must be some Belgians working at Toro Rosso and Super Aguri....we're good in finding little back doors in the law. The regulations set by the FIA seem very easy to get around.

In my opinion customer cars can be allowed for teams that are just entering F1. After a year in F1 (and already many years of preparations prior to their first season) I believe that a team must have found already enough capable engineers and employees to work on their OWN car. But that's only my idea of course

[Ciro Pabón]

I think there must be some Belgians working at Toro Rosso and Super Aguri....we're good in finding little back doors in the law.
...

Rule bending? We've never heard of that in Colombia...

Actually, Principessa, you wouldn't believe how much I do respect your opinion. You're, without doubt, the most informed person in this forum.

Besides, what you propose seem extremely intelligent: it seems that Belgians are really good for developing subtle arguments against established laws!

Well, at least from my point of view: you may have seen me (a little lonely, I thought) arguing for the naive idea of an ascent/descent series and asking for a clearer path from your local kart club to the world championship.

The counter-argument I normally receive is that F1 is so expensive that it is impossible for teams to move easily from one series to another. Your proposal fits admirably.

However, I believe it fits on a larger context, not for the benefit of a couple of teams and not in January, which is what I read in what Mr. Williams points out, with his laconic british style.

After all, he will unveil his 2007 Williams tomorrow and this is a critical car for reestablishing team reputation, so damaged after the split with BMW. Maybe Lenovo can bring some financial power to Williams, enough to assert the good engineering we are used to have from Mr. Williams and Mr. Head. In any case, resurrection or not, I can understand why, after taking so much troubles to get there, he might be upset about RBR and Honda tacticts.

Anyway, I stand by my post: all this is irrelevant in view of current rules. Or so it seems, without a very good lawyer. I find disconcerting why Honda or RBR would like to "switch on the lawyers" so early in the season. Perhaps they didn't "switch on the engineers" earlier because they can't afford them?

Frankly (I accept I'm reading between the lines) I don't think this is a question of poverty but of excess of money for those able to mantain two teams.

So, without further modifications, the results can be a less diverse series in the end, not the better (at least for me) series that would result from your proposal.

If there is any wish to include lesser teams, I humbly add to your proposal the following: include the views of F3, Formula Renault and F3000 teams to (hopefully) establish a less steep ladder for racers and a steeper one for rich supporters that, with justification, want returns in their advertisement in sports (and always will... ).

[ginsu]

Rubens slow??? Hardly. I'll agree that he rarely sets up his car for maximum 1 lap conditions but Honda made out good when they got Rubens. It's very possible that Button wouldn't have won his first race if Rubens hadn't lent some valuable driver feel to those Hondas.

If you are like me and expect him to win races not backup Jenson, then yes, he's very slow and has not been as competitive as I hoped he would be. BTW, I am Brasilian so I definitely expect more from him. Technically, he should have learned from Senna in the early days, but he hasn't won a single Brasilian GP in like 15 years. Kinda ridiculous.

Well Frank sums it up very neatly at the head of this thread and it's hard to disagree with him.........sadly I just don't see how in the world STR & Aguri will NOT be running their controversial chassis this year.

I think the problem is that people want SA and STR to be independent teams, but c'mon they're obviously B-teams. I think the FIA should encourage B-teams to fill out the grid. 18 car grids just aren't enough. Without the presence of the B-Teams, F1 would be alot more boring. Yes, I agree the rules aren't currently written to allow A to B team technology sharing, but they certainly should be. It's such a waste otherwise.

Let's remember, in the 80's there were 30 car grids!

[Rob W]

In my opinion customer cars can be allowed for teams that are just entering F1. After a year in F1 (and already many years of preparations prior to their first season) I believe that a team must have found already enough capable engineers and employees to work on their OWN car. But that's only my idea of course

That seems like a really practical idea. Only 'entering' teams can buy their chassis.

I am still thinking of this from Frank Williams' point of view. He busts his arse for years and builds up a significant engineering and design department - as other teams have also had to... and then in one year a team comes along and just says "we don't want to do that - can we just buy a car?".

If Williams is beaten by any of the customer chassis teams I'll be pretty miffed... and I'm sure Frank will be livid - and totally justifiably.

Rob W

[joseff]

Well if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I'm sure Spyker or Prodrive or even STR would love a Williams chassis.

[DaveKillens]

"A" teams? "B" teams? Allowing new teams compensation? Please, this is Formula One, the true big time. If you don't have the resources to play the game, go away until you can deal with it. Peter Sauber spent decades building a racing organization that grew better as they progressed. Finally, they had enough resources to make the big step up to F1, and did a respectable job.
This is not a junior soccer league, or an amateur go-kart league. This is the top of the mountain, where the best of the best gravitate, where the entire world watches on, and big things happen.
Personally, it's my opinion that having well funded factories back second teams dilutes and cheapens what is considered the true apex of motor racing.

[Rob W]

"A" teams? "B" teams? Allowing new teams compensation? Please, this is Formula One, the true big time. If you don't have the resources to play the game, go away until you can deal with it.

That is exactly it. This is the top level of motorsport. If you can't afford it, or don't have the patience to build a good technical/design department then go and compete in another series where that stuff isn't so important (at a team level).

Buying cars is totally against the core objective of F1 as I've always known it. - the pursuit of winning through a combination of driver, teamwork and design innovation.

Rob W

[AeroGT3]

I am still thinking of this from Frank Williams' point of view. He busts his arse for years and builds up a significant engineering and design department - as other teams have also had to... and then in one year a team comes along and just says "we don't want to do that - can we just buy a car?".

If Williams is beaten by any of the customer chassis teams I'll be pretty miffed... and I'm sure Frank will be livid - and totally justifiably.

Rob W

Well said.

"A" teams? "B" teams? Allowing new teams compensation? Please, this is Formula One, the true big time. If you don't have the resources to play the game, go away until you can deal with it.

Also well said. I am so sick of hearing about cost cutting and road relevant and customer cars. Its F1! Get the hell out if you can't afford it.

[ginsu]

"A" teams? "B" teams? Allowing new teams compensation? Please, this is Formula One, the true big time. If you don't have the resources to play the game, go away until you can deal with it. Peter Sauber spent decades building a racing organization that grew better as they progressed. Finally, they had enough resources to make the big step up to F1, and did a respectable job.
This is not a junior soccer league, or an amateur go-kart league. This is the top of the mountain, where the best of the best gravitate, where the entire world watches on, and big things happen.
Personally, it's my opinion that having well funded factories back second teams dilutes and cheapens what is considered the true apex of motor racing.

So you would be just as happy with 16 car grids? Is there a favorable amount of racing cars? Sure it's debatable, but I think many people prefer more cars to less cars on the grid.

When F1 started, it was not the pinnacle of wasted budgets, it was the pinnacle of motorsport. Colin Chapman was not a multi-billionaire, he didn't succeed through shear money (see Toyota) but through innovation. If you guys want a true cost is no object car, then it would be such a waste of money and talent that it would have no real relevance to the auto industry or to fans.


Patrick Head has just said that he doesn't think that SA or STR should be able to compete for constructors points but would still be able to fight for drivers points. I think this might be the only fair solution to the current problem. Face it, B-teams are probably going to have to run their A-Team chassis.

Also, I would be extremely disappointed if Anthony Davidson didn't get to drive because of this, so a solution must be found.

[DaveKillens]

Good points ginsu, all relevant. I don't have all the answers, I just state what I do or don't like.
These days, with the rules supposed to be stable (to please the factories), the level of refinement has gone well past the point of diminishing returns, and teams spend hundreds of millions chasing that elusive .01% gain in performance. It just costs so darn much to join the party these days.
Maybe in a few years conditions and rules may allow a more favorable climate to allow teams to get involved and compete

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, Dave, there is also the subject of technological "purity": is it damaging less important series?

Perhaps there is a widening gap between mechanichs racing and scientific racing. I'm not sure that's good by itself.

Weird comparisons come to my mind with steroids and other sports. Is F1 in steroids, technologically speaking? Is winning everything, even by allowing, I don't know, diamond in engines? You can use it, it's just matter of wallet size.

You know, there is a big difference between pinnacle of racing and pinnacle of mechanical engineering... The proposition in F1 is to blend both, a task that nobody has proven is feasible.

[ginsu]

Here here, I agree that things are at a tipping point for the future of F1. But, I am excited about Prodrive entering the fray and they have stated that they will not build a chassis. Surely, somebody has told them that this was going to be OK in 2008?

[Ray]

I look at the customer car issue with a different view than my friends. I don't really see that big a deal about it. Are Patrick Head and Frank Williams really worried about a chassis that couldn't even beat Spyker beating them? I don't see how, well I guess a little bit. They have a very valid point, but the cost is so high to be competitive it can't really hurt that bad to let it happen. I'm all for more cars on the grid, and if customers cars get them the jump they need to learn, I don't have a problem with it. But on the flip side, it's F1. You should put up or shut up. I think that the driver points is okay too, and not constructors points. I also think it would be okay for the first season, after that you have to make your own chassis.