Red Bull RB9 Renault

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scarbs
scarbs
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Yurasyk wrote:Interesting black "flo-vis" at the bottom of endplates after making donuts.
that's brake dust, the rear brake ducts exit inwards and leave deposits on the endplate

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Mr.G
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Juzh wrote:
seinfeld wrote:whats with all the holes in the T tray? kinda weird??
Heat dissipation.
Could it be this - http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... tion37.htm

BTW - about the comment of don't using drinking bottle - could this be some type of code message?
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

Jonnycraig
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Mr.G wrote:
Juzh wrote:
seinfeld wrote:whats with all the holes in the T tray? kinda weird??
Heat dissipation.
Could it be this - http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... tion37.htm

BTW - about the comment of don't using drinking bottle - could this be some type of code message?
The drink bottle requires electricity to squirt some liquid into the drivers mouth. They were putting as little strain on the alternator as possible.

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techF1LES
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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aral
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Did you read the rest of the story? "Result...THE FLOOR DOES NOT MOVE." So Sir Gary was wrong!

Mandrake
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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It was a nice theory, but again proven wrong. Whatever RedBull do in that area, it is clever enough to not be easily spied out by analysts.

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Did Gary Anderson specifically say that it was designed to flex more when hot? I don't remember reading that. I thought it was more of an observation that the Red Bull t-tray seems to get very hot, suggesting it's scrapping the ground quite a bit, and posed a question of how they are able to this without wearing out the plank.

As it stands any time could set their car up with maximum rake, but they would wear the front end of the plank out and fail scrutineering. McLaren had this problem at the start of the season I believe.

aral
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Diesel wrote:Did Gary Anderson specifically say that it was designed to flex more when hot? I don't remember reading that. I thought it was more of an observation that the Red Bull t-tray seems to get very hot, suggesting it's scrapping the ground quite a bit, and posed a question of how they are able to this without wearing out the plank.

As it stands any time could set their car up with maximum rake, but they would wear the front end of the plank out and fail scrutineering. McLaren had this problem at the start of the season I believe.
Yes GA did say that he felt the t-tray was bending.

Re McLaren, theirs was a different "offence". They deliberately built their floor with a bend up towards the front, claiming that they were using tolerances. The FIA begged to differ, and it was specifically banned.

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Duke
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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You'd expect it to spark a bit if it was scraping the ground that much?

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Tim.Wright
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I'm finding this a little hard to believe. 300deg is well beyond the maximum temp of any normal composite resins. And I'm sure its well above the maximum temp of the plank material also. Heating up the undertray to that sort of temperature would just destroy it.
Not the engineer at Force India

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Jumping in into this discussion :D

regarding the bending of the lower redbull rb9 t-tray,i theorized into 2 scenarios:

1st scenario [Which I think is what's actually happening]:

- It has been like this all along the season. :!:
Remember, these 'thermal' camera's have only been added recently to the
'show', and thus revealing information to which we previously have either
not been paying attention to, or simply hasn't 'caught the eye'. :wink:

The supposed 'increase' in performance compared to the competition might
just be simply due to fine-development of the RB9 itself as supposed to
the competition, like Ferrari, abandoning development of the 2013-spec
vehicles as their ambitions for this year have faded - same may be said
for Mercedes.
In addition, these tracks might have suited the RB9 more then other tracks
throughout the year, and the whole Pirelli aftermath should not be taken
out of that equasion either. Which all just might be enough to explain the
possible 'leap' of dominance of Vettel and the RB9 of late (mind you, Mark
has not been up to Vettel's league the entire year, so don't rule out driver
influence either]. :P

* Anyway, IF this is what it has been up to all season long, but only has
catched the eye because of the thermal imaging, then the explenation could
easily be as following: :arrow:

The front of the T-tray doesnt 'flex' at all, but is is just merily scraping
the ground due to it's setup - and it can be just the tiniest of setup changes
to bring in this effect. Let's 'enhance' what happens a bit. Start of the race,
RB9 is fueled to the bone and thus heavier. Tires are cold, thus slightly smaller
in diameter. This could essentially mean that, when the RB9 is either under braking
or due to corner 'squatting' is getting closer to the ground -
So close, that this combined might just make the front of the t-tray [or the titanium
bracket] slightly skid the track [due to the rake of the RB9's floor]. When increasing
velocity, rear downforce will slightly 'level' the RB9 = lessen the total rake of the
vehicle, thus in essence, 'raising' the front of the t-tray so it will not skid or
scrape the track when higher speeds occur.
Question raised is thus: when do these 't-tray thermal anomalies' occur? :?:

- If, at the tail end of the race, fuel weight has decreased significantly, thus
actually 'raising' the RB9's ride height just a tad, then we could expect these t-tray
'heating' can't occur during final stages of the race - do we know the exact timescale
of these 't-tray anomalies' of RB9?
- secondly, might the 't-tray' heating only occur when tires are either worn [thus lowering
ride hight slightly] or fresh out of the pitlane? Tires 'design' have played a great role
in the decline and rise for certain teams after the 'pirelli-silverstone issue', since the
shape between kevlar and steel belted tires - as i understood - differ. Therefore, the effect,
either on it's own, or combined with other aspects - should not be ruled out as effecting the
entire RB9 setup.



The result thus simply may be that the t-tray 'just gets hot' due to the circumstances - being,
the RB9 is built riding a little lower, but just not low enough that it would compromise the
wearing on the wooden plank.

If this is the case, then indeed, all FIA testing of the T-tray will show the RB9 is built within
legal boundaries - thus heating or putting weight on the t-tray will not alter it's shape - since
it's shape simply doesn't alter.
The thermal imaging camera actually supports this idea - let's say the tires heat up to between
70 - 100 Centigrades, and the radiator [visible through the car's sidepod intakes] is somewhere
around these figures aswell. Since the front of the t-tray lights up in a similar 'bluepurplish'
shade, then it's temperature must lay somewhere between these same numbers. I read however, that
the FIA actually conducted a test up to 300 degrees centigrade, that is 3 times hotter then the
FIA's thermal imaging camera's actually showed - and nothing happened. It would be quite doubtfull
to 'assume' RedBull would be 'sneaky enough' to let it come to effect in 310 degrees, or when under
'air pressure' combined. Again - it is 3 times the heat spotted during the race in Korea. :wtf:

in conclusion: Theory 1 holds that we are simply spotting as how RB9 is built: to just scrape
the tarmac at times to make it run as low as possible, and thus no flexing occurs -
I genuinly believe this to be the case. :idea:

--

2nd Scenario

- Somewhere recently, the RB9's t-tray floor has been 'modified' to flex [or, it has been like that all along
and we has just spotted it thanks to the thermal imaging camera] :D

The flexing theory isn't too far-fetched since of all teams, RedBull has shown in past seasons to have
been 'flexing' their front wing somehow, as various onboard video's have undoubtfully proven.
I however, differ of opinion in the way the floor is actually 'flexing' as has been theorized by f.e. Gary
Anderson [Mind you, I have no doubt about Anderson's qualities and knowledge].
The theory raised is that due to the floor getting hot, it somehow 'bends' upwards and thus improves ride
height capability, possibily gaining an advantage of up to 0.5 - 0.7 seconds a lap.
FIA's 300 centigrade heating of the T-tray test supposedly has thrown that idea into the garbage as nothing
happened, proving RB9's 'legalty'.

However, that may not be entirely true. :idea:
It was theorized the materials used in the tea-trey would, due to the heat, deform [think of a bi-metal that gets
heated] and thus 'raise' the front of the t-tray, creating the supposed aerodynamic benefits. The FIA test showed
that under heat, the t-tray did not 'lift up' - but that doesn't mean nothing happens down there. :!:

The material used to 'reinforce' the t-tray might not bend under heat by itself, but that doesn't mean it doesn't
become 'softer' or doesn't bend with a little 'force'.

IF the front of the t-tray gets hot enough by scraping the track [due to whatever reason], it might heat up a certain
material down there [could hold various parts of the t-tray] enough that it becomes 'soft', and the weight or downforce
of the RB9 itself pressing onto the tarmac could be just enough 'force' to actually 'deform' thus 'flex' the front of the
t-tray. This would still result in the aerodynamical advantages raised by G. Anderson. 8)

Image

Only difference is, the t-tray isn't flexed due to heat, it's flexed due to the heat softening the material so the 'track'
essentially 'pushes' the t-tray upwards, instead of it 'flexing by itself', and the test the FIA conducted is not able to
prove this - or at the very least, legalty of this scenario has not been tested. =D>

I am sure Adrian Newey has enough knowledge to make this theory work, especially since the RB-lineup of past years has a
signature of 'flexing' at various parts of the car. :wink:

A picture of the RB9's underside shown below [Japan] could even back this story up, as the front part of the T-tray shows
various 'grinding' scratches, up to a sudden point where it stops and there are hardly any scratches, and that's exactly
over the lenght of the front t-tray. Apart from that, RedBull has been notorious of trying to 'hide' their floors from public
and media and in previous years didn't enjoy too much when their floor got catched by the media.

here is the picture [from auto motor und sport]:

Image
http://img2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Red ... 545521.jpg


* anyway, even though the 2nd scenario could be possibile, I still have my doubts. Basically because as mentioned before, 'natural'
car development, driver input, and 'track suitability', versus the decline or halt in development of the competitor teams, could
just as easily explain the supposed 'leap' of dominance over the past few races. And even more, this possible 'flexy t-tray' might
have been present on the RB9 from the start of the season [perhaps even from past years] - we just didn't spot it due to the
inexcistence of thermal image camera's giving away this little 'secret'.

---------------

let's discuss 8)
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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Spacepace
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Even if it had bent would the FIA be able to do anything about anyways?

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Spacepace wrote:Even if it had bent would the FIA be able to do anything about anyways?
If it indeed bent during the test @ Buddh India, then it would mean the RBR9 did not comply to the rules, and thus
deemed illegal and the car would thus be disqualified or would not be granted permission to participate in the Indian GrandPrix - unless RedBull would mount a non-flexing floor that would comply with the rules and thus participate to the Indian GrandPrix with that car.

If the FIA would conclude the car would have been illegal after the race, Redbull would have been disqualified from the Indian GP and their points aswell thus taking back the world championship from them for atleast 1 race more.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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atanatizante
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Finally all the pieces are putting together : http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 39#p459639
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

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atanatizante
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Re: Red Bull RB9 Renault

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Tim.Wright wrote:.
... 300 deg is well beyond the maximum temp of any normal composite resins. And I'm sure its well above the maximum temp of the plank material also. Heating up the undertray to that sort of temperature would just destroy it.
There are special polyamides resins with thermoplastic behavior, such as this one: http://www.arizonachemical.com/Global/P ... 202626.pdf
As you could see this resins could easily be exposed to air for up to 2 hours at 210°C (410°F) or 3 hours at 190°C (374°F) without skin formation or significant viscosity increase ...
Now carbon fibers alone has a high thermal dissipation coefficient and within a carbon fiber structure it could easily surpass the 300°C test stress.
In this test matter two good questions are needed to be answered:
1. How long that 300°C temperature was applied to the structure?
2. The test was undertaken when this particular temperature was reached?
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus