2013 Abu Dhabi GP - Yas Marina

[SectorOne]

Apart from the pitlane entry bit, what difference is this compared to Massa/Hamilton in Singapore?
I don´t remember much from the Singapore incident other then the fact that Hamilton overtook outside the track limits and had to give the place up.

[Hobbs04]

Alonso is the one that´s entering the racetrack, he´s the one that should be cautious.

...

I still think the FIA's decision was wrong. Alonso entered the track and he put himself in the position of being squeezed from the track. Verge was driving his line and speed and was ever so slightly in front of Alonso. He was always going to drift to the outerside of the track and push Alonso wide. Alonso had to see that coming and decided regardless to keep the foot down and leave the track to complete the pass. If you go by consistency, the stewards should have penalized this IMO.

Looking at the bigger picture though - if you make passing each other more easy, I think drivers will start showing more respect again (or less hot-headedness) as there will be less reason to go full-out on the few rare attempts there are too pass someone.

Next time you ramp onto the freeway and get side by side another car see what your natural response is.

Ol' Alonso knew if he got in front of STR's back tire he could push regardless if STR pushed him wide. I agree with the fact Alonso is the one entering and should be cautious and had there been a crash he would probably be facing a grid penalty in Austin, but he didn't.

[jknights]

Apart from the pitlane entry bit, what difference is this compared to Massa/Hamilton in Singapore?
I don´t remember much from the Singapore incident other then the fact that Hamilton overtook outside the track limits and had to give the place up.

They changed the rules and drivers advice since then.

Looking at the incident again it is clear that in fact Alonso was taking avoiding action (if anything) and just going hell for leather.
Personally I think that pit exit route should be off the racing line with a kink to slow down the entry to the track to avoid such incidents.

[jknights]

Alonso is the one that´s entering the racetrack, he´s the one that should be cautious.

...

I still think the FIA's decision was wrong. Alonso entered the track and he put himself in the position of being squeezed from the track. Verge was driving his line and speed and was ever so slightly in front of Alonso. He was always going to drift to the outerside of the track and push Alonso wide. Alonso had to see that coming and decided regardless to keep the foot down and leave the track to complete the pass. If you go by consistency, the stewards should have penalized this IMO.

Looking at the bigger picture though - if you make passing each other more easy, I think drivers will start showing more respect again (or less hot-headedness) as there will be less reason to go full-out on the few rare attempts there are too pass someone.

Agree... Luckily for Alonso he was also driving a red car! (I didnt say that did I?).

Next time you ramp onto the freeway and get side by side another car see what your natural response is.

Ol' Alonso knew if he got in front of STR's back tire he could push regardless if STR pushed him wide. I agree with the fact Alonso is the one entering and should be cautious and had there been a crash he would probably be facing a grid penalty in Austin, but he didn't.

[Jonnycraig]

Apart from the pitlane entry bit, what difference is this compared to Massa/Hamilton in Singapore?
I don´t remember much from the Singapore incident other then the fact that Hamilton overtook outside the track limits and had to give the place up.

Hamilton was run out wide over the T5 rumblestrips and thus 'off track' but kept momentum and then dove up the inside of Massa into T6, thus was deemed to have gained an advantage by going wide and told to give the place back.

[Phil]

Next time you ramp onto the freeway and get side by side another car see what your natural response is.

Oh, I'm not questioning Alonso's natural response. I was more criticising the lack of consistency from the stewards. I have no problem with either decision, but IMO they should be enforced consistently, not only within a singular race, but across the season too.

Also about Alonso's natural response and to get to your "when I ramp onto the freeway" question: Vergne just didn't suddenly pop up next to him. Given the angle that Alonso was coming onto the track, it was a whole lot easier (and the onus on him) to abort his attempt of getting side by side by simply lifting a bit, compared to Vergne who was in a right hand corner and was pretty much commited to the corner at his given speed. I think given how dangerously he ended up going off the track (causing a minor injury to himself in the process) or the collision that could have happened by putting himself there, it was on him to not take that risk in the first place.

I get that in the heat of the moment, one is bound to make mistakes, or end up in situations where in hindsight you might have done so differently, which is ok. It's racing after all. I'm just saying that IMO, it was on Alonso to 'think for both' than for Vergne who was on the track already.

For the record, as a spectator, I usually prefer the stewards to not punish every thing outthere and give a bit more leeway when it comes to the racing. If it's one thing I dislike though - it's the stuff that get investigated after the race or inconsistency.

[Pierce89]

...

I still think the FIA's decision was wrong. Alonso entered the track and he put himself in the position of being squeezed from the track. Verge was driving his line and speed and was ever so slightly in front of Alonso. He was always going to drift to the outerside of the track and push Alonso wide. Alonso had to see that coming and decided regardless to keep the foot down and leave the track to complete the pass. If you go by consistency, the stewards should have penalized this IMO.

Looking at the bigger picture though - if you make passing each other more easy, I think drivers will start showing more respect again (or less hot-headedness) as there will be less reason to go full-out on the few rare attempts there are too pass someone.

Agree... Luckily for Alonso he was also driving a red car! (I didnt say that did I?).

Next time you ramp onto the freeway and get side by side another car see what your natural response is.

Ol' Alonso knew if he got in front of STR's back tire he could push regardless if STR pushed him wide. I agree with the fact Alonso is the one entering and should be cautious and had there been a crash he would probably be facing a grid penalty in Austin, but he didn't.

Do you people realize that JEV himself said Alonso prevented a big crash and he thought that Alonso didn't deserve a penalty. Sometimes it amazes me how people will let their agenda blind them to facts.(I will admit though, I'm often as guilty as anyone)

[Pierce89]

They should make the cars filter through turn 4 straight to turn 7 in my personal opinion. Bypass T6.

The track already has the option for that. It seems like a no brainer. I totally agree that they should go from the high speed sweepers straight into the hairpin, bypassing the fiddly chicane.

[SectorOne]

Do you people realize that JEV himself said Alonso prevented a big crash and he thought that Alonso didn't deserve a penalty. Sometimes it amazes me how people will let their agenda blind them to facts.

Since when does Vergne write the rulebook on track limits? Since when?
Oh he doesn´t? well in that case his point is worth as much as anyone´s.

"blind them to facts" Yea facts say he should get a penalty. FIA´s disregard of what the facts actually say means he does not get a penalty.

He broke the track limits rule and he overtook outside the racetrack. Crystal clear in what the facts say.

[henra]

Do you people realize that JEV himself said Alonso prevented a big crash and he thought that Alonso didn't deserve a penalty.

The Problem with that is that Alonso finally prevented a crash that wouldn't have been incipient in the first place, had he just backed off a little bit while he was still behind Vergne. That is the Problem I have with the maneuver.
Once he was besides him he indeed prevented a Crash by pulling off the track. But that's a bit like missing a braking point thereby squeezing oneself besides the other car and then claim to have avoided a Crash.

Re:

Sometimes it amazes me how people will let their agenda blind them to facts

No, I absolutely don't have an axe to grind with Alonso. He is for sure one of the very best of the current F1 Drivers.
Still I'm of the strong opinion that the same rules should apply to all Drivers and be enforced in the same manner throughout the season.
It disturbs me to see how differently things are handled between races and Drivers. Unfortunately sometimes you get the feeling it's not even just random.

[RubberSoul]

They should make the cars filter through turn 4 straight to turn 7 in my personal opinion. Bypass T6.

There are plenty of ways to spice up the racing. They all just require the annexing of the Viceroy hotel section.

Not necessary to bypass that architectural master piece, they just need to round the corners in that area.

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj5 ... a522eb.jpg

Turn 5 and 6 brought to immediately after turn 4
Turn 7 brought back to satisfy FIA safety norms without affecting safety norms
Long boring straight broken
Turns 8 and 9 made shorter to depict della roggia chicane at monza
Turn 14 rounded
Turn 16 and 17 combined and rounded
Turn 18 Rounded
Turn 19 and 20 combined and rounded

So where are the new overtaking possibilities in this proposal ? Just curious.

The first DRS zone is gone, right ? So only one DRS zone needed ?

[hollus]

I hate to fuel this kind of fires, but to all discussing Alonso vs Vergne, you have to consider this question:
Was Alonso in a corner (for his trajectory)? Did he increase the radius of any corner or gain an acceleration zone by going off the track?

Paradoxically, while Alonso (arguably) was not in a corner, Vergne, trying to occupy the same piece of tarmac, clearly was negotiating a corner.
Making rules is not easy, and interpreting them sometimes neither.

P.S. don't ask me if it deserved a penalty or not. I refuse to have an opinion on that matter.

[henra]

Was Alonso in a corner (for his trajectory)? Did he increase the radius of any corner or gain an acceleration zone by going off the track?

While he did not really increase the radius of the pit lane exit corner significantly, he increased the radius of the subsequent opposite turn (to the extent it effectively became a straight line) and more importantly short-cut the latter.
Besides his excess speed due to the wider turn radius of the pit lane exit compared to the racing line on the track itself (which is oviously not an ideal design) this was what gained him the advantage.

[Phil]

Was Alonso in a corner (for his trajectory)? Did he increase the radius of any corner or gain an acceleration zone by going off the track?

Paradoxically, while Alonso (arguably) was not in a corner, Vergne, trying to occupy the same piece of tarmac, clearly was negotiating a corner.

I agree, in fact i brought up the very same point. It IMO just underlines my point that Alonso had the option to lift safely, while Vergne was inside the right hand corner and comitted to the corner when Alonso entered the closing gap. When you are already at the limit of your grip, it's a lot harder to make changes to your direction or simply 'leave enough room'. Therefore, and because Alonso was entering the track, my conclusion is that if someone was to blame, it would be Alonso.

For the sake of pointing it out again - i would have a lot less issues about it not being punished if the rules were applied consistently. Sadly it seems "leaving the track to gain an advantage' is one of the most black and white ones to apply - or at least that's what we were told when, i think Massa (or was it Grosjean?) narrowly passed a car but left the track for a split second (and by just a few inches) and should have given the place back. If it is such a black and white rule, how could this have been not?

[Blanchimont]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BYJ2V_HCEAAOK0g.jpg:large

Doesn't the fourth picture from the link show that Alonso is in front of Vergne at this point? Of course, at this point Alonso already left the track with all four wheels. But if we go back a bit in this sequence, let's say between the third and the fourth frame, couldn't it be possible that Alonso was already ahead of Vergne just at the moment when his last wheel left the track?