Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
I find it interesting that Raikkonen has reverted to the old wheelbase. Given that the since-Hungary Pirelli tyres are weaker under compound loads, it makes a lot of sense, really. Kimi needs a lot of compound grip as he likes to trail brake deep into the apex, and the shorter wheelbase means more weight shift under braking, meaning more loaded fronts which should help the fronts grip more when he needs the compound grip there.
raymondu999 wrote:JimClarkFan, if you're talking about the latest influx of Vettel driving style posts, please don't blame me lol. I just bring whatever I can find here, just that right now there are a lot of Vettel driving style analyses out there!
lol - no blame intended, was just wondering if you had seen any on your travels.
You and others have their ear to the ground more than me regarding F1, should you happen to find some good analyses of other drivers be sure to post them
From earlier in this thread:
Fernando Alonso - Making Understeer Interesting
Fernando is medium-hard on the brakes and with a bit of overlap between braking and cornering. Then as he’s coming fully off the brakes he applies a lot of lock very quickly, initially partly stalling the front tyre to give a sort of false understeer. Occasionally the front will bite better than he anticipates and with so much lock on that can induce the rear into suddenly stepping out – and it’s then you see him applying punches of oversteer to which he’s very attuned, as if he’s half-expecting it. More usually the understeer stays through most of the corner and the balance is maintained with more or less throttle.
It’s a less extreme version of the technique that was very evident in the rearward-heavy Renaults of 2003-’06. But it wasn’t invented for those cars, they simply allowed him to amplify it to good effect. “I’ve always driven like that – ever since karts,” he said back in 2003.
It’s a technique that allows him to take in enormous momentum, making the car very alive but without the hazard of too much oversteer. It lends itself to great repeatability, but puts a slightly low ceiling on ultimate peak grip. But it’s consistent, makes the car malleable in that crucial, early part of the corner and it keeps strain off the delicate rear tyres. It’s a great fighting technique, working over a wide variety of lines and grip levels as he uses the throttle to fine- hone the car’s placement.
It’s a bullying technique, dominating the car rather than going with its flow in the way, for example, Kimi Raikkonen would. It’s quite similar, in fact, to how Felipe Massa drives but is less aggressive on the brakes, slightly earlier and therefore more consistent, with fewer line-altering lock-ups. It was a technique that allowed Alonso to minimise the penalty of the trait of 2010 and ’11 Ferraris not bringing their front tyres up to temperature quickly enough.
Because he doesn’t actually need the ultimate front grip; so long as he gets some sort of turn-in he’s manipulating the angle with brakes and throttle, almost rally-style. It’s a long way removed from the minimal-input neutrality Michael Schumacher used to stretch the Ferrari elastic in the tyre-war days, but in the Pirelli era Alonso’s more physical technique is probably more effective. Michael was still trying to drive his way in the control-tyre era, using steering lock only grudgingly on his Mercedes, his brain hard-wired to feel that steering lock equalled momentum loss. But when the tyre cannot support the momentum, the car refuses to adopt a stance of sliding neutrality after just the slightest hint of steering lock. Thus the Alonso method is much more adaptable.
With the higher grip of the 2013 Pirellis it’s going to be interesting to see if that still applies. If it does not, expect Alonso to adapt, just as he did when going from Michelins to Bridgestones in 2007 – though it took him a few races.
Is that how Alonso drives now though? I'm not so sure, I remember him in the Renault and it did seem that way, but I see less of it now from Alonso.
What about Grosjean folks? Clearly a very fast driver, the first F1 driver in I don't know how long to win night of the champions. He clearly has speed, but what is his style. To me it seems a bit like Hamilton in how he drives but I can't be sure because I have not seen enough onboards.
Here's an interesting read from Rob WIlson on driving. A driver coach who has coached many F1 drivers on the grid, and is highly respected.
The extract has been translated, so the structure isn't perfect, but it is perfectly understandable.
Among the drivers he has coached are Lewis and Kimi, which is the more interesting part so i've highlighted it in bold:
Lewis and Kimi - a world unto itself
I work with drivers from all categories of auto sports, including rally, and so far I'm still on a one-on-one probably worked with about two thousands of drivers over the years. I must say that I work quite unique in the world there is no one in this way, in such conditions, addressing each (professional) driver individually.
All we need are two miles of asphalt, some plastic cones and plain rented road car, something like a Skoda Octavia and Opel Astra. I worked for many years on the track at Goodwood, but the last 15 years mainly drive the Bruntingthorpe airfield, about two hours north of London. Also, travel and training in various parts of the world, mostly in the United States and Australia.
The principle of operation is not very complicated. First, sit in the car and I give a lecture on my dynamic manipulation of mass car around corners. It takes more than two hours, and not so boring as it seems, especially for drivers who do know exactly what I mean. Then the driver gets into the passenger seat, and I'm behind the wheel. One round heated clutch and brake (yes, this should be done on an ordinary road car ...) and then I drove one quick lap, in which we measure time. Then we stop, change places and then begins the most interesting part of the training: working on the driving style of each driver.
Drivers usually do not have a particular opinion and not specially excited when I drove one a quick lap. They all have very deep into the sport and are not particularly impressed or scared. But, most of them are very surprised when later in that same car alone take a quick lap, and eventually discover that there were three or four seconds slower than me (within lap which lasts about a minute and a half ) . Of course, most of them are convinced that they made a mistake somewhere, and insist that you try again. But usually only now somewhere ahead and time is usually even slower ...
The secret is not great. Dynamic manipulation of the curves is no trick. It is more about physics and logic, and a fairly deep understanding of the way the key parts of the car, such as engine and brake, and also the ways in which physical forces act in any, even the smallest segment of each curve on the track.
The vast majority of drivers, whether it is about those still in Formula 3 or a Grand Prix driver, your skills are honed instinct. Their careers are usually so intense and dynamic that, in fact, rarely engaged in perfecting the techniques of driving. Because substantially all learned (or think they have learned) still in karting and in Formula Ford and Renault, and then adapting to each new talent and advanced category of the competition. Simply, they never stopped to address the deeper the technique of driving, at least in the aspect that I am trying to draw attention.
I worked, of course, with many F1 drivers in these almost 25 years. They are all, of course, very, very good drivers. But they are all still with me had the opportunity to fix a lot. Among other things, and also because they wanted to, they had indeed surpass my time per round! Mills is the fact that this mode is excellent: when someone comes to Formula 1 must, by default, is already considered to be a pretty good driver. Then he sees me, who does not look like Mr. Universe, and think ˝ This would be too easy. ˝ and then, clearly, there is a little landing. But also, it forces them to work on themselves and their run, and become better drivers.
Exactly half of this year's F1 grid, then twelve drivers have undergone training so far with me. Some only once or twice, some, such as Bruno Senna and Pastor Maldonado, a dozen or more times. With drivers coming constantly, like Bruno before a day or two, we are working on certain curve simulations for these races. In this particular case, we worked on the simulation curve of 90 degrees, which is one of the hallmarks of trails in Singapore. (Pastor is a very good driver, I have to say a lot faster than Bruno Senna. Course, has to work on his patience ... and coexistence with other drivers on the track. Bruno is much calmer, and perhaps more systematic. On the long run, if he had the chance, he be in Formula 1, and could have gone further ...)
two drivers came to me once, in the very beginning of his F1 career, and i said to both of them that they no longer have to come. One, Lewis Hamilton, he immediately improved my time, second, Kimi Räikkönen, drove nearly the same time and then at the end he greatly improved my time.
The two men are the drivers with the most natural talent who have worked with me in this quarter century. Their pure, raw speed, their coordination of the head and arms and legs, their reflexes and their control during cornering dynamics of car - this is something truly unique, something I'm trying to learn all the riders who come to me, and as these two have, I guess from birth. Comparison of the two? I think that Lewis by one circle of the fastest driver in the world today, though in recent times, as the older, shows that he is able to connect a lot of those rounds into a whole. Kimi is definitely the fastest race car driver in the world today.
With Kimi I worked in 2001 as soon as he came into Formula 1, and I think that, with the passage of years,he is getting better and better. The only change now is that, I think, much more mature and more thoughtful. Lotus which drives this season is a good F1 car, but apparently not so good when there is not much gasoline. From there is problems in qualifying, and from there are problems with overtaking in the final stages of the race. Overtaking Kimi understands very simple: get close to someone, look at how it is best to do, and overtake him. The fact that he wasn't good this year in the final stages of the race, is telling me that team has a problem that something is not quite processed about the car he drives.
Hamilton show how everything should be done in 2007. Now it's just faster. Of course, in the last three years the McLaren car was not worthy of his skills. Now the situation is a little better and I think he is the biggest favorite to win the championship this year. Certainly, by pure his speed it would be totally deserved. But, as you know, things are never quite simple. other factors can still get involved in the game.
I think Hamilton and Räikkönen will always be faster than anyone else in similar circumstances, that is, in the same car. So it would be wonderful to see them on the same team, but it is, I suspect, will not happen. Pity.
Hamilton's blessed with an ability to make a car do pretty much anything he wants - Mark Hughes
I suspect that needs heavy caveat that his views only apply to those he's coached. He doesn't mention other WDC's so we can only presume they get a "No comment"?
Webber thinks Hamilton is struggling a bit with the Pirelli tires.
He has said on record that Pirelli’s sensitive tyres this year do not suit his style. Webber thinks Mercedes’ Hamilton is having a similar problem.
“He is having trouble expressing himself on the Pirelli tyres, like me,” he told the Daily Mail.
Although i have to say given the selection of cars he´s driven i would say he has coped better then Webber perhaps.
Even though his driving style is even more extreme in terms of tire wear.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"
Other guy i believe struggles on Pirelli's is Massa, he qualifys well enough but is nowhere on sunday.
His best races came late last year when teams where close to "solving" those tyres and doing one stop races.
Plus with a return to what is essentially last years tyres he improved significantly.
Sevach wrote:Other guy i believe struggles on Pirelli's is Massa, he qualifys well enough but is nowhere on sunday.
His best races came late last year when teams where close to "solving" those tyres and doing one stop races.
Plus with a return to what is essentially last years tyres he improved significantly.
Through FP Vettel brakes quite early and soft for the final 2 corners around COTA, he avoids upsetting the car and is hard on the power before the apex, amazing grip, midcorner speed and traction.
Sevach wrote:Through FP Vettel brakes quite early and soft for the final 2 corners around COTA, he avoids upsetting the car and is hard on the power before the apex, amazing grip, midcorner speed and traction.
Style really tailored to the EBD car.
I have noticed this too, Webber throws the car in at high speed and he has to take a shallower line to do it and he gets on the power after the corner of the apex. Vettel is driving like Jackie stewart, braking earlier turning later but importantly getting the power on at or before the apex which is making a lot of difference.
