2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
langwadt
langwadt
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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strad wrote:
I believe that the rarely, if ever, change final drive ratios at an event
WRONG! They change final drive ratios regularly and often for a couple of mile an hour change in wind speed.

They/you want to be just short of the rev limiter on the longest straight.
with a bit of strategy thrown in, it seems at one point the RB were always geared a bit short but I'm sure they
did the math and figured it gave a better lap times and they didn't expect to do much DRS overtaking

wuzak
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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strad wrote:
I believe that the rarely, if ever, change final drive ratios at an event
WRONG! They change final drive ratios regularly and often for a couple of mile an hour change in wind speed.

They/you want to be just short of the rev limiter on the longest straight.
And then the wind changes again after qualifying and they are stuffed.

Harsha
Harsha
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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Holm86 wrote: Precisely. The broader powerband of the 2014 engines will definitely help. And not just from 10 to 15k rpm. The torque curve is much higher at low revs than the current engines. And I also think that's why they added the 8'th gear. To allow for a sort of "overdrive" gear that probably will be used only at the tracks with highest speed. But of course it will be a compromise. But as long as its the same for everybody. And remember that on the first year (2014) you are allowed to adjust ratios once during the season. So if you --- it up completely you still have a chance to get it right.
Thanks for more info. I was worried cos sticking for single Gear Ratios and final Drive may cause the Problems of Faster with Lesser Top speed stuck behind a slower car who has higher top speed. Much like Lewis Hamilton stuck behind Nico Hulkenberg at Korean GP.

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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Holm86 wrote:Precisely. The broader powerband of the 2014 engines will definitely help. And not just from 10 to 15k rpm. The torque curve is much higher at low revs than the current engines. And I also think that's why they added the 8'th gear. To allow for a sort of "overdrive" gear that probably will be used only at the tracks with highest speed. But of course it will be a compromise. But as long as its the same for everybody. And remember that on the first year (2014) you are allowed to adjust ratios once during the season. So if you --- it up completely you still have a chance to get it right.
Yup, turbocharged engines with a rev limit reduced to 15K plus KERS should present no real set-up issues with fixed ratio 7-speed gearboxes.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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First time I read about fixed gear ratios for 2014 I found it absurd, but the more I think about it the more I like it

First of all, fixed gear ratios will make overtaking easier. If the gear ratio is not perfect for a track that means in the straight the engine will struggle pushing the car with a longer than ideal gear (this will happen on any track except Monza). This also means the slipstrem will be a lot more beneficial than today, because with lower drag thanks to the slipstrem the engine will not struggle as much, so the car trying to overtake will accelerate more than the car in front, so it will be easier to overtake. Add to that the DRS, and the effect will be higher.

Right now the DRS is not being fully exploded. The teams can´t use the correct gear ratios to achieve the top speed they could reach with DRS open because otherwise they would be too slow with DRS closed (too much drag for the gear ratio) so they have to use an average between the best for DRS open and the best for DRS closed. This means the top speed with DRS open is not as high as it could be because they hit the limiter, and that´s the reason we see cars that can´t overtake not even with DRS... But next year with fixed gear ratios the cars will always use too long gear ratios (except Monza) so when they open DRS they will fully explode DRS potential and top speed diferences will be much higher between cars with DRS open and closed, so overtaking will be much easier.


This also made me think about something.... Now KERS is only used for acceleration but.... next year, with gear ratios too long for most tracks.... would be possible to use ERS to improve top speed?

Today this would be absurd as they hit the limiter almost always on the straights so it´s only beneficial for acceleration, but next year with too long gear ratios they won´t hit the limiter on any track, only Monza, so when the engine can´t push the car faster because the drag is too high for that long gear ratio, then using the ERS would help the engine pushing the car a bit faster :idea: Keep in mind with 30 seconds they will use ERS on the acceleration of all the straights of the tracks, but they will still have a lot of seconds of ERS remaining, so maybe this would be more beneficial than using ERS for a short acceleration between two corners...

What do you think?

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theWPTformula
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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I was under the impression that 1st gear would only be used for launch and that 8 gears were necessary as the torque curve is greater. Jenson Button said that having 8 gears would make no difference to him as he would only be using 2nd to 8th apart from launch and pitstops.

wuzak
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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theWPTformula wrote:I was under the impression that 1st gear would only be used for launch and that 8 gears were necessary as the torque curve is greater. Jenson Button said that having 8 gears would make no difference to him as he would only be using 2nd to 8th apart from launch and pitstops.
It will depend on the circuit as to which ratios would be used.

Monza may be 2-8 or 3-8, whereas Monaco may be 1-6.

wuzak
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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Just had a thought....

Some teams share gearboxes with other teams - Ferrari with Sauber and (probably Marussia). McLaren help Force India, not sure if that extends to sharing the gearbox. And RBR's gearbox is used by Caterham.

Gear ratios for Ferrari and RBR will be unsuitable for Marussia and Caterham, I would think (speeds through corners, etc). So it may be that each gearbox customer will need to specify ratios that they require. Otherwise they could end up with ratios that do them no favours.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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wuzak wrote:Just had a thought....

Some teams share gearboxes with other teams - Ferrari with Sauber and (probably Marussia). McLaren help Force India, not sure if that extends to sharing the gearbox. And RBR's gearbox is used by Caterham.

Gear ratios for Ferrari and RBR will be unsuitable for Marussia and Caterham, I would think (speeds through corners, etc). So it may be that each gearbox customer will need to specify ratios that they require. Otherwise they could end up with ratios that do them no favours.
If the ratio's supplied in the gearbox from a top team are unsuitable for a lesser team, then it is because the aero and the rest of the cars powertrain is non competitive.
This lower team will therefore have absolutely no chance of improving its relative performance for the whole of the season under the new regulations that fix the gear ratios.
F1 is a spec formula designed only to benefit certain teams this is an absolute fact now.
I see no reason for the other teams to bother competing.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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autogyro wrote:
wuzak wrote:Just had a thought....

Some teams share gearboxes with other teams - Ferrari with Sauber and (probably Marussia). McLaren help Force India, not sure if that extends to sharing the gearbox. And RBR's gearbox is used by Caterham.

Gear ratios for Ferrari and RBR will be unsuitable for Marussia and Caterham, I would think (speeds through corners, etc). So it may be that each gearbox customer will need to specify ratios that they require. Otherwise they could end up with ratios that do them no favours.
If the ratio's supplied in the gearbox from a top team are unsuitable for a lesser team, then it is because the aero and the rest of the cars powertrain is non competitive.
This lower team will therefore have absolutely no chance of improving its relative performance for the whole of the season under the new regulations that fix the gear ratios.
F1 is a spec formula designed only to benefit certain teams this is an absolute fact now.
I see no reason for the other teams to bother competing.
I see no reason why lesser teams would not calculate the gearing required, and that would be supplied to them.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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autogyro wrote:
wuzak wrote:Just had a thought....

Some teams share gearboxes with other teams - Ferrari with Sauber and (probably Marussia). McLaren help Force India, not sure if that extends to sharing the gearbox. And RBR's gearbox is used by Caterham.

Gear ratios for Ferrari and RBR will be unsuitable for Marussia and Caterham, I would think (speeds through corners, etc). So it may be that each gearbox customer will need to specify ratios that they require. Otherwise they could end up with ratios that do them no favours.
If the ratio's supplied in the gearbox from a top team are unsuitable for a lesser team, then it is because the aero and the rest of the cars powertrain is non competitive.
This lower team will therefore have absolutely no chance of improving its relative performance for the whole of the season under the new regulations that fix the gear ratios.
F1 is a spec formula designed only to benefit certain teams this is an absolute fact now.
I see no reason for the other teams to bother competing.
If you really think the other teams have no reason to compete, and you also think regulations are there to benefit some teams, I see no reason for you to watch F1 #-o

F1 is the top formula, and they´ve reached human limits, so they have to limit the cars because human body can´t cope with higher forces than they´re supporting today, at least for 2 continuous hours. This is the same that happens with aerobatic planes, the limit is the human inside, not the car/plane itself, so they need to put some limits to ensure drivers will be safe. :wink:

On aerobatic planes they support around 10Gs with G force suits, but on a plane all the G forces are on our vertical axis (pulling elevator), while on a car G forces are on all the axis, vertical on some cases (eau rouge), but mainly horinzontal, wich are harder to support because you have to hold your head, and your head with a helmet weight some good kg you have to multiply by 6 wich is the max G force they´re supporting now. That´s a lot of kg to support on corners or braking with your neck, and after 2h doing this effort there´s a blackout risk wich obviously is unaceptable

This is the only real reason of the regulations limit, we´ve reached human limits so we need to limit the aerodynamics to avoid higher G forces on corners, we need to limit the engines to avoid higher G forces on brakings (higher top speed means stronger braking as the downforce would be higher so they could brake stronger), we need to limit any aspect wich could improve cars perfomance because drivers wouldn´t support it, it really is this simple

Also, they use this excuse to put more limits when some team moves away from the competition, but IMHO this is good for the sport because they ensure drivers safety stopping a new way to continue improving perfomance and they also ensure competition will remain interesting, so it´s perfect for everybody, except the team on top (Ferrari with Schumy, Red Bull now...).

It´s a necessary evil, that´s all, we could discuss the way they put the limits (I´m first disagreeing with FIA´s way), but the limits itself are necessary

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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Of course Wuzak, I am aware that the lesser teams can choose ratios different to the top teams..
What I am saying is that the ratio's they choose will be based on a less competitive aero and powertrain combination.
Unfortunately they will then be stuck with the ratios they choose for the whole season.
Any improvements they make in other areas will be negated by the ratios they are forced to use all season.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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Of course Wuzak, I am aware that the lesser teams can choose ratios different to the top teams..
What I am saying is that the ratio's they choose will be based on a less competitive aero and powertrain combination.
Unfortunately they will then be stuck with the ratios they choose for the whole season.
Any improvements they make in other areas will be negated by the ratios they are forced to use all season.

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Juzh
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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I was under the impression only final drive is fixed (and first maybe?), and that you are allowed to nominate 5 (currently 20) different 2-7 gear ratios at the start of the season to suit different tracks. Teams will also be allowed to change their final drive once during 2014 if they somehow get it horribly wrong.

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Paul
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Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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No, it's 8 numbers representing ratios between input and output that must be nominated. Actually, my interpretation is they can change final drive if they wish, as long as the change all the other cogs accordingly, not that I envisage a situation where this would be necessary.