2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

[Juzh]

I was under the impression that you are allowed to nominate 5 (currently 20) different 2-7 gear ratios at the start of the season to suit different tracks.

This was in an early draft of the rules. They scrapped it many months ago.

Ah, wasn't aware of that. What's the current situation then? How many ratios can they nominate?

[wuzak]

Of course Wuzak, I am aware that the lesser teams can choose ratios different to the top teams..
What I am saying is that the ratio's they choose will be based on a less competitive aero and powertrain combination.
Unfortunately they will then be stuck with the ratios they choose for the whole season.
Any improvements they make in other areas will be negated by the ratios they are forced to use all season.

The same is true of the top teams.

The top teams also, generally, improve more over a season. Just look at RBR this season - they have upped their performance more than anybody else.

[Andres125sx]

Of course Wuzak, I am aware that the lesser teams can choose ratios different to the top teams..
What I am saying is that the ratio's they choose will be based on a less competitive aero and powertrain combination.
Unfortunately they will then be stuck with the ratios they choose for the whole season.
Any improvements they make in other areas will be negated by the ratios they are forced to use all season.

I don´t see how the bolded part can be correct....

Any aerodynamic improvement will provide higher top speed. If they´ve lowered the drag the top speed will be higher (and the gear ratios don´t need any change), or if the downforce have been increased they´ll take the corners faster so they´ll go out from the corners faster and that will increase the top speed (and the gear ratios don´t need any change)

Any engine improvement will provide higher top speed because when your top speed limit is the drag (too long gear ratios) more hp will always increase the top speed

Any suspension imporvement will improve the handling/cornering speed so they can hit the throttle sooner and reach a higher top speed (and the gear ratios don´t need any change)

And so on... so I don´t see how fixed gear ratios could negate any improvement of the teams.....


Keep in mind they won´t race with gear ratios like today, hittting the limiter. In that case you would be right, any improvement would be limited by the gear ratios, but that´s not the case. Next seasson they will only hit the limiter on Monza because they will use that gear ratios for the whole seasson, so when you´re using a too long gear ratio, the top speed is limited by the drag and straight lenght (time at WOT), that means top speed and acceleration will improve with any other improvement, aero, engine, suspension...

[turbof1]

Any aerodynamic improvement will provide higher top speed. If they´ve lowered the drag the top speed will be higher (and the gear ratios don´t need any change), or if the downforce have been increased they´ll take the corners faster so they´ll go out from the corners faster and that will increase the top speed (and the gear ratios don´t need any change)

I don't think you have a good handle on aerodynamics mate. If the extra downforce brings more drag, your top speed will be lower. That has nothing to do with cornering speed, just a very simple and very true given.

Downforce almost always comes at the cost of extra drag.

Any engine improvement will provide higher top speed because when your top speed limit is the drag (too long gear ratios) more hp will always increase the top speed

Except that they aren't allowed to make performance updates to the engine (if I am correct). Anyway, you are still stuck with how the extra hp is divided due fixed ratio's.

Any suspension imporvement will improve the handling/cornering speed so they can hit the throttle sooner and reach a higher top speed (and the gear ratios don´t need any change)

Like it is that easy. Mechanically, suspension is as good as it is. Not one team out there is going to squeeze something extra out of it.

[autogyro]

Of course Wuzak, I am aware that the lesser teams can choose ratios different to the top teams..
What I am saying is that the ratio's they choose will be based on a less competitive aero and powertrain combination.
Unfortunately they will then be stuck with the ratios they choose for the whole season.
Any improvements they make in other areas will be negated by the ratios they are forced to use all season.

The same is true of the top teams.

The top teams also, generally, improve more over a season. Just look at RBR this season - they have upped their performance more than anybody else.

I agree but the lesser teams have a far wider range of performance increase available to them compared to the top teams.
The top teams should (if they get it right) be far closer to the absolute performance of the regulation framed formula strait out of the box.
The top teams will remain within or at least very close to their initial choice of gear ratios for the whole season, the lesser teams will not.

[Andres125sx]

Any aerodynamic improvement will provide higher top speed. If they´ve lowered the drag the top speed will be higher (and the gear ratios don´t need any change), or if the downforce have been increased they´ll take the corners faster so they´ll go out from the corners faster and that will increase the top speed (and the gear ratios don´t need any change)

I don't think you have a good handle on aerodynamics mate. If the extra downforce brings more drag, your top speed will be lower. That has nothing to do with cornering speed, just a very simple and very true given.

Downforce almost always comes at the cost of extra drag.

Maybe I didn´t express it correctly, I was showing two scenarios: 1: they improve the drag, so the top speed is increased. 2: They improve the downforce but don´t increase the drag, so the cornering speed will be faster and the top speed will increase too.

If you consider any downforce improvement also increases the drag, then it will depend on the ammount or ratio between both of them, so you can´t say for sure what will happen in that case...

Anycase I was only saying I disagree with that Autogyro satement about "any improment will be negated by the fixed gear ratios", because it´s not correct, any improvement will be an improvement, fixed gear ratios will not negate anything

[autogyro]

Of course improvements to a cars performance from aero design will be negated by fixed gear ratios chosen for a less effective aero package, this is just basics.

[turbof1]

Maybe I didn´t express it correctly, I was showing two scenarios: 1: they improve the drag, so the top speed is increased. 2: They improve the downforce but don´t increase the drag, so the cornering speed will be faster and the top speed will increase too.

If you consider any downforce improvement also increases the drag, then it will depend on the ammount or ratio between both of them, so you can´t say for sure what will happen in that case...

Any downforce improvement always comes with drag. Just adding downforce will limit top speed and acceleration due the extra. You can improve it by substituting low L/D element by improvements in higher L/D areas. However, in practice this is very difficult. Teams ussually prefer to have more downforce then less drag.

Any downforce improvement will improve cornering speed. However, running more downforce means a lower top speed, in which case you'll want to adjust your ratio's, and vice versa. To simplify: you have a top speed limit imposed by the drag, and a top speed limit by the ratio's (hitting rev limiter). You want to match those for optimum acceleration and speed. Concerning top speed there is no benefit shedding drag while you are hitting the limiter.

[Holm86]

Any downforce improvement always comes with drag. Just adding downforce will limit top speed and acceleration due the extra. You can improve it by substituting low L/D element by improvements in higher L/D areas. However, in practice this is very difficult. Teams ussually prefer to have more downforce then less drag.

What you say is contradicting. "Any donwforce improvements always comes with drag". Is not right. It depends on L/D ratio.

If you have a rear wing with a sertain amount of negative lift and a sertain amound and you replace it with a rear wing with a better L/D ratio then you can have more negative lift for the same amount of drag.

[hollus]

The hard limiter will only be hit in 8th gear for one part of one straight in one circuit all year. Even if you get Monza's top speed wrong by 10Km/h you are unlikely to be limited by the limiter anywhere else. You might have a less than optimal RPM range, but top speeds should not be a problem in the sense of not reaching them.
But let's assume that you indeed lose the top 10Km/h range in a random circuit due to any reason, say, engine life worries. You will be 3% slower for about 5 seconds a lap, costing you 0.15s in lap time. No, this should not be Marussia's excuse to be out of the points.

[turbof1]

Any downforce improvement always comes with drag. Just adding downforce will limit top speed and acceleration due the extra. You can improve it by substituting low L/D element by improvements in higher L/D areas. However, in practice this is very difficult. Teams ussually prefer to have more downforce then less drag.

What you say is contradicting. "Any donwforce improvements always comes with drag". Is not right. It depends on L/D ratio.

If you have a rear wing with a sertain amount of negative lift and a sertain amound and you replace it with a rear wing with a better L/D ratio then you can have more negative lift for the same amount of drag.

I think we are both saying the same . Just in a bit different words and a different starting perspective. I was going from that for instance adding extra winglets or more AoA brings more drag automatically with the extra downforce. That was what I meant with "downforce improvement". Say you have a car with 200 L and 500 D. Add an element of 100 L and 200 D. Your L/D ratio improved, but you are still carrying more drag and will hamper your top speed.

Maybe I should have been bit clearer then "any downforce improvement". However maybe a bit incomplete as a statement, by no means it is contradicting.

[andylaurence]

The hard limiter will only be hit in 8th gear for one part of one straight in one circuit all year. Even if you get Monza's top speed wrong by 10Km/h you are unlikely to be limited by the limiter anywhere else. You might have a less than optimal RPM range, but top speeds should not be a problem in the sense of not reaching them.
But let's assume that you indeed lose the top 10Km/h range in a random circuit due to any reason, say, engine life worries. You will be 3% slower for about 5 seconds a lap, costing you 0.15s in lap time. No, this should not be Marussia's excuse to be out of the points.

Hitting the limiter isn't always slower. Shortening the ratios limits the top speed as you hit the limiter, but it also means you accelerate more quickly, so whilst you lose for a short period at the end of the straight, you gain all the time you're in that shorter gear prior to that. The same goes for the increase in drag. It's still important, even if you're hitting the limiter, because that drag is slowing your rate of acceleration all the way down the straight. With less drag, you'd hit the limiter earlier.

[strad]

All I know is I wouldn't want to be down .15seconds a lap.

[autogyro]

All I know is I wouldn't want to be down .15seconds a lap.

Exactly thats about one gear tooth in direct top.

[turbof1]

Imo, I think the biggest question will be by how much these engines, including the energy recovery systems, will be better then the current ones. With the amount of torque, an excess of power will be spread over longer gears, no matter the downforce.