2013 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos

[SectorOne]

He also had contact in Turn 1 with Gutierrez.

[mikeerfol]

He also had contact in Turn 1 with Gutierrez.

That was Maldonado I think. Button almost crashed into him when Pastor rejoined the track

[Phil]

However, refraining from giving penalties just because the causing driver already suffered disadvantages is for me out of the question. First and foremost the reason why a penalty is given, is because there is a concern for safety. Anyone who puts someone else at risk in an unnecessary way has to be punished, inside and outside F1. If you cause a traffic accident where the other driver becomes partially disabled, you wouldn't escape punishment because it caused a mental breakdown for you.

I agree. When I stated that I found "hamilton was already punished enough", I was more talking from a personal point of view in light that I would put it down to an unfortunate racing incident where neither is entirely at fault or blameless. By Bottas's own account of not being aware that he wasn't fighting for position but in fact racing with a car who was a lap ahead, I think he needs to take care of these details. Obviously, when you engage in a battle with a car you are fighting over a position, it is safe to assume both drivers are focused on what is happening around them. When you are unlapping yourself, it might not be as clear cut, because you are not effectively racing for position and because it's quite rare that a car unlaps itself (I don't think it has happened too many times so far), there's a potential risk that the 'leading' car a lap ahead might not be fully aware. Sure, it doesn't change the fact that both shouldn't be driving around like mindless gnomes, but in an ideal world, you always have to think for your opponent as well. In this case, this applies to both.

[LionKing]

It was clearly and fully Hamilton's fault. He made a similar error to Suzuka this year, or SPA 2011 or Vettel's mistake in Turkey 2010. That Turkey incident did not happen when Webber squeezed Vettel but a bit later when Vettel decided to steer right towards the racing line but he had not cleared Webber's car completely yet.

Secondly, he was also harmed in the accident does not and should not prevent him form getting a penalty as at the end of the day he ruined Bottas's race. Schumacher ran into back of Vergne in Singapore last year and he paid the ultimate price by DNFing in the process. He still got a hefty grid penalty for the next race...

Last year It was Hulkenberg who was inside and Lewis outside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2lfHXdDpSk

[turbof1]

Imo, does the context really change if you undouble yourself or if you fight for position? For all we know, Hamilton might have had the same impression that he was fighting for position. Brawn mentioned they didn't warn about the fact that Bottas was 1 lap behind, or atleast not good enough.

I do feel sorry for Hamilton. He absolutely didn't want this. However, he does need to take responsibility for his actions. Escaping that would have been less justifiable then getting an overly harsh penalty.

Bottas could have used maybe a bit more care too, I can accept that, but I can also understand he was driving his own race and that he didn't want to loose time behind a slower driver. It's the reverse of being held up by backmarker really. I also doubt this wouldn't have happened when Bottas was closer to the edge of the track. Hamilton would probably have kept moving over to the right. The basic lesson which probably everybody got stomped in when they started driving: when doing a manoeuvre, use your mirrors!

[oT v1]

Coulthards comment's were hilarious, "bottas did have room to move out the way" que? let it be known lesser drivers, if Hamilton turns into your line, you should move to the edge of the track...

[Phil]

Coulthards comment's were hilarious, "bottas did have room to move out the way" que? let it be known lesser drivers, if Hamilton turns into your line, you should move to the edge of the track...

I don't think it was Coulthards intend to make it sounds like that, but more to the tone "there was still some room left for him to take avoiding action". It's easy to put the blame on Hamilton because he clearly wasn't looking or aware that Bottas was next to him, but the same could not be said of Bottas. He was pulling up besides him and, as I mentioned before, Hamilton was already moving to the racing line a good deal *before* they touched. He didn't make any erratic moves in that sense. While it doesn't change the outcome, I do think you can question if Bottas should have at least used the room he had. If he had been crowded beyond that point and off the track, fair enough, but you can't really say it would have turned out like that (in fact, watching the footage closely, it seems Hamilton was just about to turn in when they collided, so he most likely would have left that one cars width of length - which he did not in Spa 2011 when he colided with Kobayashi in a similar event).

As I said, most unfortunate for both - as the collision was down to milimeters and a split second.

[komninosm]

It was clearly and fully Hamilton's fault. He made a similar error to Suzuka this year, or SPA 2011 or Vettel's mistake in Turkey 2010. That Turkey incident did not happen when Webber squeezed Vettel but a bit later when Vettel decided to steer right towards the racing line but he had not cleared Webber's car completely yet.

Secondly, he was also harmed in the accident does not and should not prevent him form getting a penalty as at the end of the day he ruined Bottas's race. Schumacher ran into back of Vergne in Singapore last year and he paid the ultimate price by DNFing in the process. He still got a hefty grid penalty for the next race...

Last year It was Hulkenberg who was inside and Lewis outside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2lfHXdDpSk

Hulk lost his rear during the turn and crashed into Ham.
How is that in any way similar at all?
Neither your Suzuka nor your Vettel example are similar either.
And most of all neither is of a driver trying to unlap himself. They were all incidents of people racing for position.
You people just need to get over your Ham-hate bias.

It's pretty clear what happens in racing. Drivers try to push each other to the edge. That's why they made up the rule about leaving a car's width. Bottas wanted more than that. He could have gone more to the right as drivers expect you to do, but he chose not to. I won't say it was his fault, but it was his choice.
The rest is all BS. Hamilton is BSing, Bottas is BSing. FFS Bottas contradicted himself in the space of two sentences. First he said he thought he wasn't unlapping himself, then he said he wanted to overtake there and then even though he knew he was a lap behind Ham, because he would lose a bit of time in the next sector behind him. These people who are a lap behind seriously need to learn their place and not ruin the race of the front-runners. That's why we have frackin blue flags.

EDIT: Read what Phil said above. Remember some time ago when Alonso and Vettel were racing and one got pushed out of the track? They didn't collide because they gave way. They weren't boneheaded like Bottas. And they were racing for position not frackin unlaping themselves. The penalty for Hamilton was totally wrong. What Bottas did was idiotic and deserves punishment, but there are no rules against it. It's really common sense. If you're a lap behind don't take any risks with the front-runners.

[LionKing]

It was clearly and fully Hamilton's fault. He made a similar error to Suzuka this year, or SPA 2011 or Vettel's mistake in Turkey 2010. That Turkey incident did not happen when Webber squeezed Vettel but a bit later when Vettel decided to steer right towards the racing line but he had not cleared Webber's car completely yet.

Secondly, he was also harmed in the accident does not and should not prevent him form getting a penalty as at the end of the day he ruined Bottas's race. Schumacher ran into back of Vergne in Singapore last year and he paid the ultimate price by DNFing in the process. He still got a hefty grid penalty for the next race...

Last year It was Hulkenberg who was inside and Lewis outside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2lfHXdDpSk

Hulk lost his rear during the turn and crashed into Ham.
How is that in any way similar at all?
Neither your Suzuka nor your Vettel example are similar either.
And most of all neither is of a driver trying to unlap himself. They were all incidents of people racing for position.
You people just need to get over your Ham-hate bias.

It's pretty clear what happens in racing. Drivers try to push each other to the edge. That's why they made up the rule about leaving a car's width. Bottas wanted more than that. He could have gone more to the right as drivers expect you to do, but he chose not to. I won't say it was his fault, but it was his choice.
The rest is all BS. Hamilton is BSing, Bottas is BSing. FFS Bottas contradicted himself in the space of two sentences. First he said he thought he wasn't unlapping himself, then he said he wanted to overtake there and then even though he knew he was a lap behind Ham, because he would lose a bit of time in the next sector behind him. These people who are a lap behind seriously need to learn their place and not ruin the race of the front-runners. That's why we have frackin blue flags.

EDIT: Read what Phil said above. Remember some time ago when Alonso and Vettel were racing and one got pushed out of the track? They didn't collide because they gave way. They weren't boneheaded like Bottas. And they were racing for position not frackin unlaping themselves. The penalty for Hamilton was totally wrong. What Bottas did was idiotic and deserves punishment, but there are no rules against it. It's really common sense. If you're a lap behind don't take any risks with the front-runners.

I didn't give Hulk/Lewis as an identical example. But to highlight Lewis was the car on the outside, had quite room to the left, but the accident was on Hulk. So it was an example against putting the blame automatically on the driver outside.

They have to give at least a car width but it doesn't exonerate them from driving into drivers next to them in the straights. In Turkey Webber had probably about 2-3 cars of space on his left! Bottas had a just little bit of space on his left and Hamilton a lot more on his right. Each gave each other enough room. In a straight when side by side, you just can't steer into the other driver.

About the backmarkers, absolutely not correct, When they are faster they can and will unlap themselves. Lewis battled with Vettel last year and unlapped himself at Germany as well. Vettel in this race just let the lapped drivers unlap him when they were faster.

[i70q7m7ghw]

The lack of understanding of basic race craft on this forum is truly troubling sometimes. So much talk of Hamilton "turning in" on Bottas. How can he "turn in" on a car that's on the outside of the corner?

[i70q7m7ghw]

They have to give at least a car width but it doesn't exonerate them from driving into drivers next to them in the straights. In Turkey Webber had probably about 2-3 cars of space on his left! Bottas had a just little bit of space on his left and Hamilton a lot more on his right. Each gave each other enough room. In a straight when side by side, you just can't steer into the other driver.

It was no more than 1.5 cars width. It was actually a similar sized gap to what Hamilton left.

[SiLo]

They have to give at least a car width but it doesn't exonerate them from driving into drivers next to them in the straights. In Turkey Webber had probably about 2-3 cars of space on his left! Bottas had a just little bit of space on his left and Hamilton a lot more on his right. Each gave each other enough room. In a straight when side by side, you just can't steer into the other driver.

It was no more than 1.5 cars width. It was actually a similar sized gap to what Hamilton left.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EIudiheIFZw/T ... h-copy.jpg

Anyone done the same with the Hamilton/Bottas incident? I just can't remember how much room Bottas had left.

Would there have been any penalty if neither had gone off the track and there was simply just a touch of wheels?

[i70q7m7ghw]

They have to give at least a car width but it doesn't exonerate them from driving into drivers next to them in the straights. In Turkey Webber had probably about 2-3 cars of space on his left! Bottas had a just little bit of space on his left and Hamilton a lot more on his right. Each gave each other enough room. In a straight when side by side, you just can't steer into the other driver.

It was no more than 1.5 cars width. It was actually a similar sized gap to what Hamilton left.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EIudiheIFZw/T ... h-copy.jpg

Anyone done the same with the Hamilton/Bottas incident? I just can't remember how much room Bottas had left.

Would there have been any penalty if neither had gone off the track and there was simply just a touch of wheels?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ynAI-Ypp7Y[/youtube]

[Hail22]

They have to give at least a car width but it doesn't exonerate them from driving into drivers next to them in the straights. In Turkey Webber had probably about 2-3 cars of space on his left! Bottas had a just little bit of space on his left and Hamilton a lot more on his right. Each gave each other enough room. In a straight when side by side, you just can't steer into the other driver.

It was no more than 1.5 cars width. It was actually a similar sized gap to what Hamilton left.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EIudiheIFZw/T ... h-copy.jpg

Ah yes...this screenshot from Turkey I like the aggressive cut across on Webber but as history shows Mark drove on and Vettel retired with the looney tunes expression. =D>

[LionKing]

My mistake, I didn't mean the left but the right of Webber. That part of the Turkish circuit is quite wide and Webber had so much space to his right. Rightfully so, nobody accused Webber at the time. Now Bottas is blamed of absurd things like asking for more than a car width of track, not using the little bit track on his right, etc.



As for the "turn in", I think I used the word "steer" to describe Lewis's path into Bottas.