Is Formula 1 becoming too slow?

[JimClarkFan]

Cars have been getting progressively slower over the last decade.

From reading around it is projected that the cars next year could be anywhere from 4-10 seconds slower, depending on the track than this year.

Not sure how I feel about that.

Anyone got any projections on lap times, speed, horse power for next year?

[langwadt]

Cars have been getting progressively slower over the last decade.

have they? afaict from a google of laptimes there was a big slow down mid 2000s, but the cars have since caught up and are now pretty much just as fast as they ever were

[godlameroso]

The removal of exhaust blowing, the annulment of the beam wing, the lower nose and narrower front wing will reduce aerodynamic performance. We're looking at a loss of at least 2 seconds a lap from the aero changes alone, and another .5 seconds from the imbalance caused by the heavier power units, with absolutely no gain in straight line speed and longer braking distances and F1 looks to be no faster than a 2014 LMP car or GP 2 car, especially in race trim seeing as how teams are going to cruise around trying to make it to the end of the race with the limited fuel supply. A 2014 F1 car in race trim will weigh about 800kg.

According to this http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/1/1 ... n_2014.pdf
The LMP1 cars for 2014 will weigh 830kg for privateers and 850kg for hybrids. Add the fact that the rules are a lot more open in LMP than F1, and also that teams are allowed to harvest twice as much energy as the 2014 F1 powertrains. In conclusion, F1 is still fast but other series are getting really close, they'd have to allow traction control and adaptive suspension to regain all the speed that will be lost as a result of the regulations.

[Cold Fussion]

The current cars with 150 or 180 kg of fuel on board will weight as much or more than the next years cars in race trim. I don't know why you bother to compare the loaded weight of an f1 car with the empty weight of an lmp1 car. An F1 car + driver will weight 680 kg next year, which is 170 kg lighter than the empty lmp1 car, and again from memory, the diesel hybrid fuel tank size in 2013 was around 60-70 liters, they will carry around half the weight in fuel as an F1 car.

[godlameroso]

The weight is 690kg, and to top it off the teams are having difficulty meeting the minimum. In many cases the weight will be more than 690kg. Add 100kg of fuel and it's 800kg. Furthermore, the lack of exhaust blowing puts the downforce in the LMP's favor as it's a far less restrictive formula.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Iwo4dAtl_w

[neilbah]

i thought the general point of the rule changes was to keep them from getting faster rather than making them slower and as such every so often you have to claw back some of what the designers have gained through understanding and maximizing the rules over a few seasons so its a bit of a tug of war really.

No doubt the rule changes for 2014 will have a dramatic effect at first as a significant amount of df will be lost. If this means the cars slip too much and the pirelli tires fall apart then we may see compounds change quite a bit too. I dont really want to see formula 'eco' where drivers eek out their fuel and tires too much really. The cars will still be able to reach 200mph and up despite the change in power available.

Im not sure if GP2 are going to have different rules too but if the predictions of F1 cars being 6 secs a lap slower on some tracks are too then they will not be outpacing the gp2 cars by much which is a bit worrying.

[Cold Fussion]

The weight is 690kg, and to top it off the teams are having difficulty meeting the minimum. In many cases the weight will be more than 690kg. Add 100kg of fuel and it's 800kg. Furthermore, the lack of exhaust blowing puts the downforce in the LMP's favor as it's a far less restrictive formula.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Iwo4dAtl_w

LMP 1 were 12 seconds slower around COTA this year compared to F1, I would be very surprised if LMP1 were faster than F1 next year.

[godlameroso]

Fastest race lap for F1 at COTA was a 1:39.856 fastest race lap for LMP1 was a 1:47.868 by my math that's a smidge over 8 seconds I don't know where you got 12 from.

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/ ... _laps.html

http://www.fiawec.com/races/6-hours-of- ... hrono.html

If F1 cars lose 5 seconds next year and the LMP1's gain 1 then the difference will be negligible. Furthermore LMP1 will be faster than the backmarkers and some midfield teams.

[Cold Fussion]

Qualifying times.

[Lycoming]

Pole this year for Vettel was a 1:36.338, but fastest race lap was indeed basically a 1:40. The Audi on pole did a 1:48.355 this year. F1 will probably retain an out and out speed advantage. it usually works out that they claw back a decent amount of performance whenever a set of regs come in to slow them down.

Though I have to say, is it really a bad thing if F1 car's are barely any faster than LMP1 cars? being as "slow" as an LMP1 is still faster than almost every other circuit racing machine out there, and LMP1 cars are very high end machines that not any idiot can get in and drive.

[SectorOne]

is it really a bad thing if F1 car's are barely any faster than LMP1 cars?

I´d say so. Might as well call it Formula Average otherwise.
The amount of money spent in Formula 1 should warrant a clear step ahead of anything else with four wheels going around a circuit.
Today GP2 cars can sniff out the backmarkers in F1 around Monaco, next year LMP1 cars will be closer etc.

We have the safest tracks in the world and a fatality record that is unmatched in pretty much any other sport on the planet since 1994.
Make the cars quicker.

[MOWOG]

We have the safest tracks in the world and a fatality record that is unmatched in pretty much any other sport on the planet since 1994.
Make the cars quicker.

One could argue that making the cars quicker would have a negative impact on the sports enviable safety record since 1994. And that would lead to the installation of more chicanes at racing circuits around the world. And that would make the racing boring. Can you imagine a chicane at Spa just before Eau Rouge? If that is to be the case, they might as well just race go karts and be done with it.

On the question of whether Formula One cars must be the quickest race cars on the planet, I hold a somewhat contrarian view. I believe the essence of the sport is actual racing between the drivers. You know, good old fashioned passing, out-thinking the other guy, out braking the other guy, devising a better strategy than the others.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, men with huge cajones used to engage in racing like this. But then, the automobile evolved to the point where they were too powerful and too fast for any racing circuit.And that's when racing changed. From that point forward, a racer could not just bring the fastest car possible to the track and let 'er rip. The speed of the cars had to be managed and that's when racing stopped being racing and became "an entertainment product".

My point is this. If you could manage the parameters of the sport so that fans could see flag to flag lead changes, bold passes, brazen pit stop strategies, the sport would be just fine and no one would care whether the cars were faster or slower than race cars in some other series.

That's my two cents, anyway, and worth precisely what you paid for it! Maybe less.....

[piast9]

I'd hold with the opinions about the speed of F1 until we see 2014 cars. Yes, the downforce goes down so overall speed goes down but the top speed would go up as well as the slipstreaming which maybe, just maybe would allow to gt rid of the artificial DRS idea. Yes the weight goes up but the fuel weight goes down so the difference between full and empty tanks would be smaller. Let's wait and see.

[Andres125sx]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, men with huge cajones used to engage in racing like this. But then, the automobile evolved to the point where they were too powerful and too fast for any racing circuit.And that's when racing changed. From that point forward, a racer could not just bring the fastest car possible to the track and let 'er rip. The speed of the cars had to be managed and that's when racing stopped being racing and became "an entertainment product".

Agree with the reasoning, but disagree with the conclusion

I agree the problem started when F1 cars were too powerful and too fast, but not only for any circuit, but also for the drivers. F1 not only reached track limits, also human limits. 6g turns are simply too much. Aircraft pilots can take around 10-12g, but that´s completely different because they only suffer vertical forces, they can´t "turn" sideways like a car, so they don´t have to hold their body and head. They only need to worry about the blood reaching his head, but F1 drivers have to hold their head (and helmet) sideways, and at 6g turns that´s a lot of kg to hold with your neck, specially for 2 continuous hours

I think I read some years ago a driver faint may be possible due to the fatigue and that obviously can´t be a possibility, so from that point cars simply can´t be faster... at least while a driver is inside

So the regulations need to limit cars potential, and since the cars evolve during the seassons, from time to time regulations need to put a lower limit banning new solutions (ground effect, EBD...), reducing the wings, etc. to keep them into the limits.

But I wouldn´t say that means F1 is an entertainment product, it´s the same as always, the only difference is engineers are limited to the regulations while some time ago they were free to test any new idea. For drivers it´s the same, nothing changed, they have to make the most of the car they drive and beat the rivals, so the racing itself is the same

In the future I´m sure we´ll see a new competition with automated cars, or cars driven remotely. Then we will see what´s the max potential of a car with current technology, but if we want to see drivers competing inside the car that simply is not possible

[rich1701]

As for the safety argument for slowing cars down. I will just say no driver wants to sit in significantly heavier car during an accident. Increasing weight is very a disappointing decision by the FIA. First lap incidents will be more dangerous as a result.