Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
MercAMGF1Fans
MercAMGF1Fans
41
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 07:10
Location: Germany

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

Btw.. Today I had a chance to sit with an insider from Mercedes who explained to me about the FRIC for next year's car. As well as Rake angles, and why Lewis has been struggling with "braking issues"

As we know Mercedes started playing with the idea at the end of 2011, then in 2012 they had full FRIC and wasn't perfected until this year where it still a bit volatile.

this is as he explained it down to the way its laid out and no, no Mercury involved..
the concept behind the FRIC mainly to aid high speed cornering mechanical grip and to complement the lowspeed cornering with tradition anti-roll bars.. yes they use both methods. the fundamental issue this year was that because its hydraulic fluids that are adjusted, i.e taken out or put in depending on how soft you want the suspension, aren't always of the same "viscosity/pressure" at the time of adjustments, usually done in FP1 and locked for FP2 they can't get it 100% all the time between both cars. simple matter being that one car maybe hotter than the other or vise-versa when making the changes on setup as its only one guy doing it, so by the time he's finished on one car, the "pressure/viscosity" has changed.
But from what he's told me they're almost got the "balance" correct on that, and when it works, like at silverstone it works brilliantly. they should have it honed over the next few weeks for the w05 he told me.
the other thing with relation to FRIC and Lewis hamilton's braking ability.. it's not that there is anything wrong with the brakes per-sey, but more over that he's not used to the FRIC system keeping the car pitched up underbraking, where like in his mclaren days you'd see that his car DIVES massively as he wants it which gives him the confidence..
Also RAKE angle..
The trick with RAKE is that RB are able to keep a higher Rake angle compared to others yet somehow reduce drag, high rake angles give massive downforce, but at the same time, increase the drag, and Mercedes did indeed take a look at this properly and just don't know how Newey and his Eggheads at RB were able to get away with such high angles.. so much so that when the cars go on the weighbridge for scrutineering, the height of the RB at the back isn't level with the front of the car, so doing the floor plan wear test they have to drop the rear of the car to get the measurement.

Engine/powerunit wise -

Mercedes have indeed been working longer and harder on the new units than anyone else, basically since they were first announced.. the major components have exceeded the reliability tests and in terms of HP its still very much unknown but KERS/ERS is going to be very important, and unlike the current generation of KERS where if it fails, you just lose a bit of laptime, you basically won't be able to finish the race as a good chunk of the overall power will be coming from the KERS/ERS and with the fuel limit to 100KG the car will simply run out of fuel if KERS fails.

Torque Maps - he didn't tell me about that.

and thats all i got.

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

kooleracer wrote:
gray41 wrote:I think Lewis' weight loss was tongue in cheek in about the 20+ bags of sweets he'd been sent.
No, its not. He said after the race in Brazil in an interview with Skysportf1 also. Lewis has a lot of muscle. He needs to shrink down again to the Lewis of 08.
I believe he said in an interview that his physique is part for Formula 1 and part for looks.
So he can definitely cut down on the biceps etc. He´s probably got 5kg´s he could use as ballast instead of muscles.
MercAMGF1Fans wrote:so much so that when the cars go on the weighbridge for scrutineering, the height of the RB at the back isn't level with the front of the car, so doing the floor plan wear test they have to drop the rear of the car to get the measurement.
I don´t understand this bit. Surely the wear test is measuring the actual amount of wear on the plank meaning you can have the car anyway you like, even upside down if you wanted and measure the amount of wear on the plank.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

MercAMGF1Fans
MercAMGF1Fans
41
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 07:10
Location: Germany

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

SectorOne wrote:
MercAMGF1Fans wrote:so much so that when the cars go on the weighbridge for scrutineering, the height of the RB at the back isn't level with the front of the car, so doing the floor plan wear test they have to drop the rear of the car to get the measurement.
I don´t understand this bit. Surely the wear test is measuring the actual amount of wear on the plank meaning you can have the car anyway you like, even upside down if you wanted and measure the amount of wear on the plank.

Sorry didn't explain it well enough..
The weighbridge has four "pods" where the car rolls on to (where the wheels sit) those get dropped down so that the car is on it's "Belly"
due the the RedBull's Rake angle being sooo high, they have to drop the car at the rear more than all the others.. the FIA weighbridge has its limits for the "belly test" and the redbull exceeds that so they can't get a proper measurement of the car's belly.. Redbull have to "lower" the car at the back.. this isn't ride height but the rake. I still don't understand it myself as to what exactly it is but RB have really pushed the limits of the Rake angle

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

Thanks, had no idea they did that, i thought they used the old ruler trick to figure out the thickness of the plank ;)
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

kooleracer
kooleracer
24
Joined: 05 Jan 2012, 16:07

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

MercAMGF1Fans wrote:Btw.. Today I had a chance to sit with an insider from Mercedes who explained to me about the FRIC for next year's car. As well as Rake angles, and why Lewis has been struggling with "braking issues"

As we know Mercedes started playing with the idea at the end of 2011, then in 2012 they had full FRIC and wasn't perfected until this year where it still a bit volatile.

this is as he explained it down to the way its laid out and no, no Mercury involved..
the concept behind the FRIC mainly to aid high speed cornering mechanical grip and to complement the lowspeed cornering with tradition anti-roll bars.. yes they use both methods. the fundamental issue this year was that because its hydraulic fluids that are adjusted, i.e taken out or put in depending on how soft you want the suspension, aren't always of the same "viscosity/pressure" at the time of adjustments, usually done in FP1 and locked for FP2 they can't get it 100% all the time between both cars. simple matter being that one car maybe hotter than the other or vise-versa when making the changes on setup as its only one guy doing it, so by the time he's finished on one car, the "pressure/viscosity" has changed.
But from what he's told me they're almost got the "balance" correct on that, and when it works, like at silverstone it works brilliantly. they should have it honed over the next few weeks for the w05 he told me.
the other thing with relation to FRIC and Lewis hamilton's braking ability.. it's not that there is anything wrong with the brakes per-sey, but more over that he's not used to the FRIC system keeping the car pitched up underbraking, where like in his mclaren days you'd see that his car DIVES massively as he wants it which gives him the confidence..
Also RAKE angle..
The trick with RAKE is that RB are able to keep a higher Rake angle compared to others yet somehow reduce drag, high rake angles give massive downforce, but at the same time, increase the drag, and Mercedes did indeed take a look at this properly and just don't know how Newey and his Eggheads at RB were able to get away with such high angles.. so much so that when the cars go on the weighbridge for scrutineering, the height of the RB at the back isn't level with the front of the car, so doing the floor plan wear test they have to drop the rear of the car to get the measurement.

Engine/powerunit wise -

Mercedes have indeed been working longer and harder on the new units than anyone else, basically since they were first announced.. the major components have exceeded the reliability tests and in terms of HP its still very much unknown but KERS/ERS is going to be very important, and unlike the current generation of KERS where if it fails, you just lose a bit of laptime, you basically won't be able to finish the race as a good chunk of the overall power will be coming from the KERS/ERS and with the fuel limit to 100KG the car will simply run out of fuel if KERS fails.

Torque Maps - he didn't tell me about that.

and thats all i got.
So Lewis has a lot of simulator work ahead of him, to get his head around the FRIC system. Because its on the W05 as you have revealed. So the FRIC is not a as clearcut in use as I and many of us here thought. Hope for Lewis that he sort out his feelings with the FRIC because if strong suit is his late braking. Think that a lot of fuss is made about the rake but next year without the coanda, its will be extremely hard to compensate for the drag. Think in 2014 we will see less rake so Red Bull will lose that advantage. All though Newey said he will do everything to keep a high amount of rake for the RB10.

Thanks for the insight!
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."

MercAMGF1Fans
MercAMGF1Fans
41
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 07:10
Location: Germany

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

You're welcome everyone.. also I found out that the team, most of the guys do regularly visit my FB page/website lol!
will be keeping in touch with Merc over the winter properly..
and about next week's Pirelli tyre test - in Bahrain Lewis will be in car on day 1 and half a day on day 2, Nico will be taking over after that.. more chance for Lewis to get used to the FRIC.. Also NO NEW/Developement parts on ALL cars.. pure tyre test

User avatar
gray41
41
Joined: 08 Mar 2011, 12:07

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

Great insight ^^^ =D>
Lewis Hamilton #44
2016
Poles: *****
Wins: ***

Dyanxx
Dyanxx
-1
Joined: 04 Feb 2013, 00:31

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

Very interesting!

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

I´m surprised the insider did not talk about Akebono. The brakes Hamilton and Mclaren had been using since 2007.
I thought Hamilton were using them now on Mercedes but from what i´ve read, Akebono has an exclusive partnership with Mclaren.
These are the same brakes Hamilton said are "simply better" then brembo´s etc.

I think that´s part of his braking problems.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

User avatar
atanatizante
115
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 15:33

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

MercAMGF1Fans wrote: ... Also NO NEW/Developement parts on ALL cars.. pure tyre test
Errr, don't be naive! I`ve read on another forum that they will bring a 695kg car a couple of RW but most of all they'll try some FW reiterations in order to see which is the best way to divert the airflow: inside or outside the front tyres, at least ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

diego.liv
diego.liv
20
Joined: 19 Feb 2013, 17:37

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

atanatizante wrote:
MercAMGF1Fans wrote: ... Also NO NEW/Developement parts on ALL cars.. pure tyre test
Errr, don't be naive! I`ve read on another forum that they will bring a 695kg car a couple of RW but most of all they'll try some FW reiterations in order to see which is the best way to divert the airflow: inside or outside the front tyres, at least ...
Can you add the link to that forum? I'm not saying i don't believe you, just curiosity

MercAMGF1Fans
MercAMGF1Fans
41
Joined: 15 Dec 2011, 07:10
Location: Germany

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

SectorOne wrote:I´m surprised the insider did not talk about Akebono. The brakes Hamilton and Mclaren had been using since 2007.
I thought Hamilton were using them now on Mercedes but from what i´ve read, Akebono has an exclusive partnership with Mclaren.
These are the same brakes Hamilton said are "simply better" then brembo´s etc.

I think that´s part of his braking problems.
well he said it's more to do with the car behavior underbraking brake materials could be part of it but, as the FRIC causes the front end of the car to "rise" relatively to his previous experiences that's what's kinda "confusing" him..

User avatar
Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

SectorOne wrote:I´m surprised the insider did not talk about Akebono. The brakes Hamilton and Mclaren had been using since 2007.
I thought Hamilton were using them now on Mercedes but from what i´ve read, Akebono has an exclusive partnership with Mclaren.
These are the same brakes Hamilton said are "simply better" then brembo´s etc.

I think that´s part of his braking problems.
Brundle said this a couple of times during 2013 season.

bonjon1979
bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

MercAMGF1Fans wrote:You're welcome everyone.. also I found out that the team, most of the guys do regularly visit my FB page/website lol!
will be keeping in touch with Merc over the winter properly..
and about next week's Pirelli tyre test - in Bahrain Lewis will be in car on day 1 and half a day on day 2, Nico will be taking over after that.. more chance for Lewis to get used to the FRIC.. Also NO NEW/Developement parts on ALL cars.. pure tyre test
Fantastic. Great to have actual insight from someone with information rather than speculation. Regarding the FRIC adjustments and fluid viscosity etc. Would be completely insane for them just to have two people adjusting it at the same time so there was a difference in temperature?

Anon123
Anon123
1
Joined: 16 Feb 2013, 20:33

Re: Mercedes F1 W05 Pre-launch Speculation

Post

MercAMGF1Fans wrote:
SectorOne wrote:I´m surprised the insider did not talk about Akebono. The brakes Hamilton and Mclaren had been using since 2007.
I thought Hamilton were using them now on Mercedes but from what i´ve read, Akebono has an exclusive partnership with Mclaren.
These are the same brakes Hamilton said are "simply better" then brembo´s etc.

I think that´s part of his braking problems.
well he said it's more to do with the car behavior underbraking brake materials could be part of it but, as the FRIC causes the front end of the car to "rise" relatively to his previous experiences that's what's kinda "confusing" him..
I think Johnny Herbert was trying to say the same thing in Brazil, I think Lewis likes to chuck the car into corners but when the front raises it changes the balance and it stops him from using the back end to turn the car. As you said though the FRIC system worked well in Silverstone so hopefully we'll see more performances like that in 2014.