Carbon fibre moulding (chassis design update)

[kurtiejjj]

I have been reading the competition car composites book for the last week or 2 and have found out a great deal more about the carbon fibre characteristics etc.

I now have a clear idea how I'm going to make the chassis; carbon fibre, Kevlar and aluminium honeycomb layers. I'm probaply not going to be on a small budget so I think I might be able to do it.

However I'm still not sure on how many layers of carbon I should be looking at, I can't find anywhere in the book for an estimate. Anyone here who could give me an idea so that i can calculate costs?

I'm still thinking of company sending it to a company with an autoclave for added strength however I doubt it there is anyone with such a thing here in Holland.

Next to building something I was also thinking of buying an old formula 1 car roller as I found one available for 20k which isn't a damn lot considering it's history, but as I'm quite a stickler for originality I just couldn't slot in a motorbike engine, instead of it's original Ford v8 ! However I was surpised at the cost of the F1 engine I found for sale, all rebuild and dyno run, here my summary:

Ford Zetec V8 = 20.000 pounds
Ford JD Zetec V10! (yes indeed a V10) = 25.000 pounds
Ford DFR = 15.000 pounds
Judd V8 = 20.000 pounds
4× Ford 1.5 litre Turbo v6= 30.000 pounds (for all 4 of them)
Hart 1.5 turbo (very affordable and serviceable as it basically an old Ford block with a huge turbocharger) = 5000 pounds if I search well enough

However only engines you can be sure of that they can be rebuild are the DFR (nicholson mclaren, ouch expensive) and the Judd (ouch even more expensive) and who isn't tempted by that V10 if I would not have the urge to build and drive something I would buy it and put it next to my bed as my alarm clock !

However I first intended to put a bike engine in the back I now have the little devil on my shoulder who says buy a proper F1 engine but probaply I could only afford (I'm sadly nowhere near a millionaire but more of an incredibly mad enthusiast ) the turbo engines but regarding the V6 parts are nowhere obtainable so you would have to buy all for of them to keep one of them running, but what a hell of an engine that will be. The Hart engine is probaply one the best options as I know a guy who put one of these 750 HP monsters in a Caterham =D> !

Ah well hopefully I have put some light on the situations progress, would love to know the opinions on the engines!

[RH1300S]

Someone has made a clubmans competition engine by combining 2x motorbike 4 cylinder engines as a V8 on a common block.

Maybe that would be a good option

[Ted68]

Someone has made a clubmans competition engine by combining 2x motorbike 4 cylinder engines as a V8 on a common block.

Maybe that would be a good option

Your talking about Radical's sister company. It is a 72-degree, even-fire (flat crank) V8 made from Suzuki Hayabusa internals and cylinder heads with a proprietary FI/engine management system. It's nickname is Christine. They offer displacements from 2.4 to 3.0 litres. Power is around 120hp-150/litre. It makes one HELL of a scream at full throttle. The 2.6 is tuned for "road" use.

There are two proprietary Quaiffe 6-speed/R gearboxes. One a conventional front engine/rear drive and the other a mid engine T-drive ala Ferrari 348T series cars. Both have the oil tank cast into the bell housing.

Worth a look for nothing else but an interesting bit of engineering. And with bike internals, reasonable to run, you would think.

[kurtiejjj]

yep I know about the Powertec V8 bike engine I think it's marvellous however it still costs more than 20k and still has 'only' 350ish HP , what am I talking about still plenty of power for the money, there is also another v8 bike engine, the RST-V8 (mountune) 22k + a gearbox of about 7k is still interesting however. I know that there excist an american v8 bike engine but i don't know the name of the company sadly.

[BreezyRacer]

What type of racing are you considering? Hill climbs, or test days, or time trails? I've seen a lot of people buy more equipment than was wise and go quite slowly in it. An old F1 car would, I think, be pretty hairy to get a lot out of .. something of a 200mph rubick's cube.

[kurtiejjj]

What type of racing are you considering? Hill climbs, or test days, or time trails? I've seen a lot of people buy more equipment than was wise and go quite slowly in it. An old F1 car would, I think, be pretty hairy to get a lot out of .. something of a 200mph rubick's cube.

Well if I would build something myself it would be for hill climbing or a few track days or an occasional outing in one of the 750 MC series.

Well indeed a formula 1 car is too hairy really, I couldn't afford to run it a lot but if I would buy it it would just be some nice project and a nice piece of art for in the garage and maybe I could use it as a bussiness idea as well

[kurtiejjj]

Project update:

Finally got some the pics from a couple of single seater chassis moulds I hope to buy, but first I would really appreciate some views from other members:

First the top of the chassis mould:



This is the bottom part:



It seems after going through books that most F1 chassis' consist out of more pieces which is of course logically it would be near impossible to make in one go. However I still haven't found out if they use a top and bottom half, on various pictures of chassis assembly the is just no trace on where they are bonded and with what stuff, anyone who does know? It's proabply some kind of super glue hpwever I'm not sure.

This also got me thinking about the crash Dutch Ferrari importer Kroymans had in his Ferrari F399:



and here for better view:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=6155

It broke in half just behind where the steering wheel is. It seems that this car is not build with a top and bottom half, but in vertical parts. (I do expect some 'Manchild' ferrari bashing now BTW )

Well do let me know what you think about the moulds and possible suggestions are greatly appreciated![/url]

[manchild]

That's the same car Schuey crashed in Silverstone 1999 when he broke his leg. Ferrari "repaired" it and sold it to this unfortunate guy.

If you wonder why it broke there check the pic of original car




I guess they were trying to cut costs buy using small amount of super glue.



Looks like they've cut off original chassis several centimeters backwards from the point where it originally broke and than "superglued" new front end. That car definitely wasn't capable of serving for nothing but as a show car. It broke in half after a very mild crash (check the nose cone).

[Carlos]

I have seen a picture series of a folded honeycomb sheet monocoque that attached pieces of the chassis together with carbon fibre tape and resin. It may have been a FSAE or a solar racecar. I have always assumed this was the method to assemble a CF monocoque. An opinion is not enough - you need concrete information. Perhaps my suggestion would be a starting point for discussion with a professional.

[BreezyRacer]

Project update:

Finally got some the pics from a couple of single seater chassis moulds I hope to buy, but first I would really appreciate some views from other members:

Well do let me know what you think about the moulds and possible suggestions are greatly appreciated![/url]

My advice would be to think carefully (and you are so far) about separating the romance of building a full tech car or buying a working car. Building a car is no part time effort. Here's an interesting link to a guy building his project car. I think you'll find it fascinating. http://dpcars.randomresearch.com/

You'll have to hunt an peck around a bit but the design to buildup is completely documented. Very informative about what you're on the verge of plunging into ..[/url]

[zac510]

That's the same car Schuey crashed in Silverstone 1999 when he broke his leg. Ferrari "repaired" it and sold it to this unfortunate guy.

Do you know that to be true or are you guessing?

[manchild]

Do you know that to be true or are you guessing?

I'm ranting based on unofficial chit-chat

It is the truth but I can't prove it. Hope someone else has a link that confirms it. Every chassis has number plate so if we could get numbers from Schuey's 1999 Silverstone car and compare them with car crashed by Kroymans everything would be cleared out.

http://www.thoughtballoon.com/hugh/crash/

[allan]

i think MC has a point... i dunno if u were kidding, but it might be true..
i mean, i've never seen a crash like that before! the FIA wouldn't allow a car with such a weak monocoque
that guy is lucky that he still has his feet on!

[manchild]

It was the F399 with chassis number 192 (Ferrari F399/192) that Schuey crashed in Silverstone. It's maiden race was Monaco followed by French GP before it was crashed in Silverstone

http://glibs.ssmmdd.co.uk/glibs/chascnm ... 192&sord=0

Officially reported chassis crashed by Kroymans is 193

http://glibs.ssmmdd.co.uk/glibs/chascnm ... 193&sord=0

[kurtiejjj]

Do you know that to be true or are you guessing?

I'm ranting based on unofficial chit-chat

It is the truth but I can't prove it. Hope someone else has a link that confirms it. Every chassis has number plate so if we could get numbers from Schuey's 1999 Silverstone car and compare them with car crashed by Kroymans everything would be cleared out.

http://www.thoughtballoon.com/hugh/crash/

As far as I know it was they Silverstone Schumi car but is said to have a new tub so it isn't the silverstone car anymore really. Bit stupid really buying a Ferrari because Schumacher drove it and then in essence rebuild it to something that has never actually being raced .

It is known that f1 teams who sell their F1 cars let the buyer sign a contract in which is stated the car will not be competed and/or driven. Of course because carbon does weaken with time stress.

To get back to my project it seems I don't have to worry about the front end dropping off but I do have to worry about my neck .

Major point is I have to find such an autoclave thingy in the Netherlands or if I can't find one some big oven. Otherwise I doubt it if the chassis is going to rigid enough with wet lay-up, I could try of course but if there is a way to do it better, I will. However it will make use of some aluminium tubing for strengthening and the engine is more semi-stressed unit rather than having to carry the whole back-end.