Formula One fatalities.

[GitanesBlondes]

Gruesome as it may be, it needs to be seen to understand one aspect of F1's past.

Oh but people do. This is F1T remember. Watching dead people in cars with an anecdote is not the best source on the planet when it comes to understanding one aspect of F1´s past.
(in my opinion).

Then you should avoid the thread if it makes you squeamish.

[Blanchimont]

As the thread is called "F1 fatalities", i know what it is about before even reading the single posts in it. I can understand why it is needed to post pictures of how the accident happened and compare it with today's safety standards, so that we can learn what to change to make the sport safer.

But pictures of dead drivers sitting in their cars/lying on the grass is not necessary IMO to show that the accidents were deadly. For me that's just sensationlism.

Wouldn't it be possible to remove the IMG tags and instead just link to the pictures concerned?

[GitanesBlondes]

Again, as stated many pages ago, if the nature of the topic is such that one doesn't desire to see these things, then avoiding it altogether might be the best way to go.

It's a free-flowing discussion that touches on subjects that may or may not offend the delicate sensibilities of those not accustomed to a world where reality is indifferent as to whom lives, or dies. Pictures say far more than words ever will. Seeing is not the same as reading.

[SectorOne]

You won´t "understand" anything from this thread when talking about deaths in F1 and the safety that followed.

That's your opinion.

Please elaborate on what can be learned from this thread as opposed to a real source. I´m dying to hear this one.
Let the world know what you have "understood and learned" from this thread.

Edit: Oh just a downvote, that´s nice. I guess what you learned is absolutely nothing like i said.
the thread could have been really good but right now it´s a bit of text followed by crash pictures.

[Mysticf1]

For those questioning the relevance of this thread and the addition of graphic images, these are the realities of the world we live in, we are so isolated from the realities, the dark, dire and gruesome realities of every day life because it may upset someone...well the truth is sometimes it needs to in order for people to realize what really is at stake.

Do most people realize what really happens in the heat of war? You won't get it from western news sources, if you are told innocent people are killed in a drone attack, what does that really mean, what impact does that really have? When you see the people on the ground it hits home and is incredibly uncomfortable as it should be.

[timbo]

For those questioning the relevance of this thread and the addition of graphic images, these are the realities of the world we live in, we are so isolated from the realities, the dark, dire and gruesome realities of every day life because it may upset someone...well the truth is sometimes it needs to in order for people to realize what really is at stake.

Do most people realize what really happens in the heat of war? You won't get it from western news sources, if you are told innocent people are killed in a drone attack, what does that really mean, what impact does that really have? When you see the people on the ground it hits home and is incredibly uncomfortable as it should be.

The difference is that all the f1 fatalities are highly publicized. So far there's not much of a technical discussion here either. Perhaps we could call it memorial thread.

[SectorOne]

Agreed.

[WillerZ]

Anecdote which may or may not help people to understand what some of us are getting from this thread:

When Marco Simoncelli died I had recorded the race and read the news just as I started playing it back. Normally I watch the MotoGP and F1 with my family. I watched this one alone, knowing what would happen (in general terms), because it was important for me to understand what had happened (in specifics). The same applies to F1 accidents, fatal or not, e.g. Massa '09.

For me, it is about understanding exactly what happened so that I can evaluate whether (a) it is likely to happen in the next session and (b) if the mitigating action taken by the FIA/FIM/etc is going to have an effect. This is important because if (a) is YES and (b) does not help enough my family and I will not watch that sport any more.

Another reason to watch and not to trust to the reputable journalists is that, at least in the UK, they will lie to make the victim look good. We all know that Marco Simoncelli was a flamboyant and occasionally reckless rider, and the UK journalistic coverage of his death would be exactly the same if he had done something stupid or been the victim of a genuine accident. It was important for me to know the truth because, again, it would determine to what extent the sport was inherently lethal whomever was participating.

I realise that not everyone thinks like this, but please let us keep this thread for those of us who do. Maybe change the title to more adequately warn-off the squeamish.

[henra]

Gruesome as it may be, it needs to be seen to understand one aspect of F1's past. We hear far too much about Senna, and not nearly enough about the many others who were killed.

While I don't see exactly why you absolutely need to see this to understand the past of F1 at least it shows in an unfiltered way what we have been discussing and sometimes arguing about.
I have seen these pictures before so I was prepared but I can see that someone who is not prepared might be a bit irritated.
Therefore I find it OK to have it in this Thread, however a warning for the more sensitive people (and who haven't seen this before) or putting a Link instead of embedding the Image might have been appropriate.

[munudeges]

Please elaborate on what can be learned from this thread as opposed to a real source. I´m dying to hear this one. Let the world know what you have "understood and learned" from this thread.

What on Earth is a real source I wonder? Oh, you mean you want someone apparently authoritative to tell you what happened so you don't have to question anything yourself? Sorry, can't help you there.

For starters, if you'd actually bothered to do some reading then you would have learned that making the sport 'safer' has been about two things - motivation and technology. It hasn't been down to a driver driving right past fatal accidents and a guy who built chassis (well, his company did) in which drivers were killed mouthing off to the media about 'safety' and how they were responsible. However, I already knew that.

The reason why people aren't learning in this thread is because they aren't reading.

[Chuckjr]

I very much appreciate the thread as it is helping me understand details in regard to these tragedies from the perspective of devout, respectful, thoughtful fans of the sport rather than some media sensationalized headline or video which is only attempting (or attempted) to get viewers.

I sincerely appreciate all if this dialog and offer a humble thank you to the participants. I love F1 and this only serves to help me understand it as a whole--ugly parts and all.

[GitanesBlondes]

Gruesome as it may be, it needs to be seen to understand one aspect of F1's past. We hear far too much about Senna, and not nearly enough about the many others who were killed.

While I don't see exactly why you absolutely need to see this to understand the past of F1 at least it shows in an unfiltered way what we have been discussing and sometimes arguing about.
I have seen these pictures before so I was prepared but I can see that someone who is not prepared might be a bit irritated.
Therefore I find it OK to have it in this Thread, however a warning for the more sensitive people (and who haven't seen this before) or putting a Link instead of embedding the Image might have been appropriate.

henra-

It's important to understand F1's past because as I have stated previously, a revisionist history has long since been underway with people anointing Saint Jackie and Saint Max as the men who saved F1 from itself...even though that has never been even remotely near the truth. Myself, as well as munudeges have pointed out multiple times that the actual historical record shows safety improvements had little to do with either man as they were nothing more than mouthbreathers who love the sound of their own voices...and evidently, so do many others believe their garbage.

A telling thing can be seen in the latest F1 documentary "1" when Mosley doesn't even hesitate to attribute all safety improvements to his own initiatives. What was more surprising was that there were some words in there from John Hogan who was Philip Morris's European Marketing Director. He attributed the true improvement in safety down to the influx of money and the onset of commercialization of the sport. The real shame is that probably got lost on most people as Mosley spent his time pontificating about how important he was. Max makes that ridiculous claim that after Jim Clark died, he made a vow that if he ever had a position of power in the sport, he would change all of that. But he neglects to mention the number of drivers who were killed behind the wheel of March Engineering race cars. Seems to me that a good place for him to start would have been in his own backyard. What makes the whole thing even more laughable, is that Mosley was at the helm for the 1994 season, and only got off his ass after 2 drivers were dead, and 2 seriously injured through 4 races. The one thing he and Jackie have in common is they are both ignoramuses to reality.

[henra]

It's important to understand F1's past because as I have stated previously, a revisionist history has long since been underway with people anointing Saint Jackie and Saint Max as the men who saved F1 from itself...even though that has never been even remotely near the truth.

Oh, indeed it is pretty safe to assume that simple commercial pressure of a Sport that was meant to be presented to Jo Average and his family on a Sunday afternoon were the real driving forces behind sanitizing the Sport.
People burning to Death in front of the camera are not particularly Family friendly.
And then there was the (probably largely unintended) technological Quantum leap of the carbon fibre monocoque.
Both together drove F1 to where it is today from a Safety perspective. There were obviously individuals who implemented the changes but the necessary driving forces which were strong enough to overcome the costs and natural resistance against change that were associated with these changes had to and did come from a bigger Scheme.
At the end it's all about Money.

[xDama]

[...] There are dozens of threads on F1T that will teach you absolutely NOTHING about F1 or anything relevant, yet no one is debating about how much you can 'learn' from it.

If you don't like the thread, or have nothing relevant to contribute, stay away and stay silent. Those who are interested in this subject/discussion will very much appreciate it!

[Steven]

Unfortunately, and not entirely surprisingly, this thread has become a bickering party for some, hence I have had to delete a few posts, along with the usual PM's. It is also quite obvious that some are using the voting system here against its intentional use, hence those votes were deleted as well.

For the sake of information, the thread remains open, but further bickering and "I agree"-voting will lead to warnings and bans.